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  • Originally posted by Method View Post
    We derive morality from reason and empathy, for the most part.
    So those are not natural? I was told that we do not get our morality from nature.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      I think Leonhard is wrong on this matter, but I have never seen him be dishonest. In fact, he's often very reasonable, even if we don't agree at the end of an exchange. That's the whole reason I've been responding to him in this thread, despite wanting to drop the issue earlier.
      I wasn't necessarily referring to Leonhard - I was stating it as the general fact that it is.

      "Truth, to the dishonest, is more "grating" than fingernails across a chalkboard."

      Jorge

      Comment


      • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
        I'm sure the irony of Jorge cowardly trying to get EXPELLED! all those who present science which rebuts his YEC idiocy isn't lost on anyone.
        I was pretty sure that I had BOOTED you OFF this thread.

        If I hadn't then consider your OFF as of this moment.

        Begone, Beagle Boy demon!!!

        Jorge

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So those are not natural? I was told that we do not get our morality from nature.
          There is some fairly compelling evidence, of a wide variety, that human morality evolved over a couple of million years, out of hominin lifestyle. Our morality is well suited for a species that is cooperative, gregarious, competitive, highly social, and therefore requires both empathy and division of labor to survive. Those who would not cooperate to the benefit of the tribe were expelled, which was basically a death sentence. Could you imagine chimps, much less cats, following the Golden Rule?

          One interesting experiment, repeated many times, is where two players start the game with one player holding all the goodies, and can divide the goodies up with the other player however he sees fit. The player who starts out with nothing has the option of either accepting or rejecting the distribution. If he rejects it, neither player gets anything at all.

          Other species able to understand this simple game, such as chimps and gorillas, play it according to straight game theory -- that is, the player who starts out with nothing only rejects a distribution if he gets nothing. If he gets anything, however little, he accepts it because something is better than nothing.

          But humans are very different. On average, the player who starts with nothing will reject anything less than about 40% of the goodies (for people, this is money. For chimps, it's food). That is, humans would rather get nothing, than what they regard as an "unfair" distribution. If they feel the distribution is unfair, they consider it worthwhile to lose everything provided the greedy immoral player also gets nothing.

          And of course, this response is exactly what has been required over evolutionary time for hominin tribes to survive. As Benjamin Franklin said, if we don't hang together, we will surely all hang separately. So we get our morality from evolution, from trial and error when errors are fatal, and survivors are moral. Morality is species-specific.

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          • Originally posted by Jorge View Post
            I was pretty sure that I had BOOTED you OFF this thread.

            If I hadn't then consider your OFF as of this moment.

            Begone, Beagle Boy demon!!!

            Jorge
            The irony in fact WAS lost on at least one person, it seems.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by phank View Post
              And of course, this response is exactly what has been required over evolutionary time for hominin tribes to survive. As Benjamin Franklin said, if we don't hang together, we will surely all hang separately. So we get our morality from evolution, from trial and error when errors are fatal, and survivors are moral. Morality is species-specific.
              So nature does dictate our morality.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by phank View Post
                The irony in fact WAS lost on at least one person, it seems.
                Jorge's always been one of the YEC biggest cowards ever to post.

                There's no scientific fact too small for him to run from, no slime too disgusting for him to crawl into to avoid the scientifically knowledgeable.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So those are not natural? I was told that we do not get our morality from nature.
                  Empathy and reason are not derived from descriptions of nature. What evolution provided was the ability to use reason and empathy as much as evolution provided us the ability to do math or physics.

                  What we have is the ability to detect pain in others, and the reasoning ability to infer what caused that pain. From that, we choose which actions to take to minimize the pain in others and to benefit the society we belong to.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Method View Post
                    Empathy and reason are not derived from descriptions of nature. What evolution provided was the ability to use reason and empathy as much as evolution provided us the ability to do math or physics.
                    But these proclivities are natural, it is nature that dictate these responses.

                    What we have is the ability to detect pain in others, and the reasoning ability to infer what caused that pain. From that, we choose which actions to take to minimize the pain in others and to benefit the society we belong to.
                    We choose? You believe in freedom of the will?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                      Not that I've ever seen. Nor have any examples [of evolution being used to justify abortion] ever been povided here.

                      Stated, but not demonstrated. Thus there's no reason to accept the truth of the above claim.
                      I have long stated that you and your 'kind' are, among other things, sadly ignorant and/or dishonest. Let's grant that, in this case, you are merely ignorant. I personally have known about Evolution being used to justify abortion since the early 1970's and yet you have "never seen it"? WOW! What planet have you been on?
                      Not planet Jorge, where apparently stating something is equivalent to demonstrating it.

                      Below is a thought found in AiG ... there is a ton more from multiple sources:
                      Do any of them contain an example of someone using evolution to justify abortion? Because this one certainly doesn't. It's just another empty assertion.

                      Roy
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                        As I stated, there are tons and TONS of support dating back decades if you will simply LOOK with an open and honest mind.
                        But you still can't provide one example.

                        Roy
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          So those are not natural? I was told that we do not get our morality from nature.
                          No you weren't.

                          Roy
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Method View Post
                            Empathy and reason are not derived from descriptions of nature. What evolution provided was the ability to use reason and empathy as much as evolution provided us the ability to do math or physics.

                            What we have is the ability to detect pain in others, and the reasoning ability to infer what caused that pain. From that, we choose which actions to take to minimize the pain in others and to benefit the society we belong to.
                            I suppose using these terms, evolution selected human empathy. Other species often express concern about other individuals in that species, but the concern may take different forms. So what I'm trying to say is that human morality doesn't seem to be as purely rational and intellectual as you seem to imply. The Golden Rule is found at the basis for the rule systems of every known human culture not because they all reason the same way or make the same choices, but because those who internalized the Golden Rule and lived by it, survived as small tribes. I'm suggesting it's hard-wired into the human brain by now in the same way human hair patterns are wired into our biology.

                            It's no wonder that human gods have mostly been like ordinary people except with extra abilities and control over weather and such. But even today, we attempt to influence our gods emotionally with sacrifices, threats (of disbelief), and bribes. And that's also cross-cultural. Our gods are designed to embody the morality and human nature that evolved with our species.

                            Comment


                            • Good point. I'm a little out of it today.

                              @ Leonhard, I've actually finished a response(can't believe I got the whole thing done today), but I'm waiting on a response from some of the other mods about where it should go. I don't want to debate at this point, but I felt you deserved a response, and a chance to respond. It's too big for one post, so expect a rather long read compared to normal TWeb threads.

                              ETA: Oops, that was supposed to include Jorge's response to me earlier.

                              Yes, it's a good point that truth is grating on those who are dishonest. I did a bit more "work"(I don't consider responding to people here to be real work, but what I did today was a doozy for me) than I've done in a long time.
                              Last edited by Cerebrum123; 09-03-2014, 04:46 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                But you still can't provide one example.

                                Roy
                                What you want is for me to waste my time doing work that YOU should be doing.
                                And it would indeed be a WASTE of my time 'coz only God Almighty Himself could
                                ever get you to admit your error / change your stance -- certainly no "example"
                                that I could post here would achieve that goal.

                                What planet was that again - you know, the one you've been on for the past 40 years or so?

                                Jorge

                                Comment

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