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Micro- vis--vis Macro-Evolution

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  • Micro- vis--vis Macro-Evolution

    Let's discuss,

    1) What is the mainstream science distinction between micro- and macro-evolution -- if there is one.

    2) How do YECs, creationists, and other anti-evolutionists define the distinction?

    3) Why do many anti-evolutionists accept micro- but not macro-? ...a fortiori, if there is no functional difference?

    K54

  • #2
    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
    Let's discuss,

    1) What is the mainstream science distinction between micro- and macro-evolution -- if there is one.
    There is. Microevolution is evolution within a single species. Macroevolution is evolution beyond a single species.

    Roy
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    Mountain Man: this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      There is. Microevolution is evolution within a single species. Macroevolution is evolution beyond a single species.

      Roy
      With the caveat that the distinction is blurry at the margin. We see populations of numerous species which appear to be in the process of speciation -- that is, some subgroup's interbreeding with the rest of the population is diminishing, sometimes approaching complete isolation. Sympatric speciation. During this process of increasing isolation, are we seeing micro or macro evolution in action?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by phank View Post
        With the caveat that the distinction is blurry at the margin. We see populations of numerous species which appear to be in the process of speciation -- that is, some subgroup's interbreeding with the rest of the population is diminishing, sometimes approaching complete isolation. Sympatric speciation. During this process of increasing isolation, are we seeing micro or macro evolution in action?
        Right, and so with ring species.

        K54

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        • #5
          Originally posted by phank View Post
          During this process of increasing isolation, are we seeing micro or macro evolution in action?
          IIRC as long as there is no barrier to interbreeding, it's micro, but once there are two subgroups between which breeding is less successful (reproductively rather than frequentially) it becomes macro.

          Roy
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          Mountain Man: this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

          Comment


          • #6
            Anyway, regardless of ambiguity at the species boundary, there is a reproductive boundary somewhere up the taxonomic tree.

            So, what is the Rubicon the anti-evolutionist dare not cross?

            K54

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            • #7
              Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
              Anyway, regardless of ambiguity at the species boundary, there is a reproductive boundary somewhere up the taxonomic tree.

              So, what is the Rubicon the anti-evolutionist dare not cross?

              K54
              Darwinian HUMAN Evolution

              ...speaking for myself that is
              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                IIRC as long as there is no barrier to interbreeding, it's micro, but once there are two subgroups between which breeding is less successful (reproductively rather than frequentially) it becomes macro.

                Roy
                But there are many species catagorized as such because they DO not interbreed, rather than because such breeding would be less successful if they tried it. And occasionally ranges change, resuming an overlap, and gene flow between them resumes as a result. So the process of splitting and lumping goes on.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                  Darwinian HUMAN Evolution

                  ...speaking for myself that is
                  So you're ok with non-human "Darwinian" evolution?

                  Is there a difference between evolution and "Darwinian evolution"? Do you mean the understanding of evolution before the modern synthesis of natural selection and molecular genetics?

                  K54

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                    Anyway, regardless of ambiguity at the species boundary, there is a reproductive boundary somewhere up the taxonomic tree.

                    So, what is the Rubicon the anti-evolutionist dare not cross?

                    K54
                    Maybe this is the wrong model. The anti-evolutionists see a world of baramins. Gene flow within a baramin is expected, gene flow between baramins is prohibited. And what determines a baramin? Ah, there's some considerable creationist "research" into this question. My understanding is, horses and zebras are in different baramins, but all bacteria are in the same one. In general, baramins are careful to distinguish among large mammals, less careful about insects. Baramins have no real correspondence to Linnaean taxonomic levels, and can divide subspecies familiar to us while including entire phyla not so familiar.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by phank View Post
                      Maybe this is the wrong model. The anti-evolutionists see a world of baramins. Gene flow within a baramin is expected, gene flow between baramins is prohibited. And what determines a baramin? Ah, there's some considerable creationist "research" into this question. My understanding is, horses and zebras are in different baramins, but all bacteria are in the same one. In general, baramins are careful to distinguish among large mammals, less careful about insects. Baramins have no real correspondence to Linnaean taxonomic levels, and can divide subspecies familiar to us while including entire phyla not so familiar.
                      Wow, that's just plain nuts.



                      So why can't evolution generate new "baramins", according whichever definition an anti-evolutionist chooses to use?

                      K54

                      justplainnuts.gif

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                      • #12
                        Well, I am inclined to say that macroevolution is the evolution of a genus into another genus.

                        All a group of animals have to do is stop breeding with a subset of themselves to be a different species. So I would consider that microevolution.

                        my voices say the biblical taxa "kind" is equivolent to "genus"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by selfreasoning4all View Post
                          Well, I am inclined to say that macroevolution is the evolution of a genus into another genus.

                          All a group of animals have to do is stop breeding with a subset of themselves to be a different species. So I would consider that microevolution.

                          my voices say the biblical taxa "kind" is equivolent to "genus"
                          Thanks for your input!

                          Now what mechanism would prevent the evolution of a subset of new species from an ancestral species from becoming eventually a new genus?

                          The key term here is "mechanism".

                          K54

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                            Wow, that's just plain nuts.



                            So why can't evolution generate new "baramins", according whichever definition an anti-evolutionist chooses to use?

                            K54
                            Because evolution does not create. It merely shuffles. All baramins were created during the first six days, though it has happened that some of them have gone extinct. No new ones can appear without the Creator bringing them (Wording them? Poofing them?) into existence.

                            The implications of the baramin approach may not be obvious at first. Because new baramins can't evolve, "macroevolution" can ONLY mean the morphing of one baramin into another - dogs into cats, for example. And this can't happen because it would require a half-dog, half-cat, which is not a chimera which could survive. Similarly dinosaurs could not evolve into birds, because this would entail half-wings which would be functionally useless. Also, because origin of life (and origin of baramins, and origins of the universe) are all part of the same atomic creation event, the distinctions between them are regarded as artificial and moot. The origin of all baramins WAS the origin of all life, so these are the same thing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                              Now what mechanism would prevent the evolution of a subset of new species from an ancestral species from becoming eventually a new genus?

                              The key term here is "mechanism".

                              K54
                              Divine prohibition, of course. ALL mechanisms are God's mechanisms.

                              Comment

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