Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Great New AronRa video, Evolution is a fact

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    OK so maybe you aren't a troll. Just a jackass jerk. I apologize.
    You are being too kind...
    Last edited by seer; 08-07-2014, 08:29 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      But why certain mutations take or don't take is random because of the environment they by chance find themselves in. And the environment that drives natural selection is to there by chance so:

      1. Mutations are random.

      2. The creature is in a particular ecological niche by chance.

      3. The ecological niche itself that drives selection is also there by chance.

      Chance is behind the whole system.
      When playing roulette against the casino the number that turns up is random yet over time the house manages to win 5% without fail. Why is that?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
        When playing roulette against the casino the number that turns up is random yet over time the house manages to win 5% without fail. Why is that?
        Because the game is intelligently designed that way? In any case which one of my three points do you take exception with?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Because the game is intelligently designed that way? In any case which one of my three points do you take exception with?
          The words random and chance most often are used to mean a uniform probability distribution, where each outcome is equally likely.

          Natural selection acting on different variations doesn't have a uniform probability distribution. Some variations will outperform others and become more numerous in the population.

          The proper term is that the selection part of evolution is stochastic - meaning each event is unpredictable - but long term trends will always follow the nonuniform probability distribution.

          That's why you may beat the house on any given roulette spin, but since the numbers 0 and 00 give the house a 5% advantage the house will always win in the long run.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
            The words random and chance most often are used to mean a uniform probability distribution, where each outcome is equally likely.

            Natural selection acting on different variations doesn't have a uniform probability distribution. Some variations will outperform others and become more numerous in the population.

            The proper term is that the selection part of evolution is stochastic - meaning each event is unpredictable - but long term trends will always follow the nonuniform probability distribution.

            That's why you may beat the house on any given roulette spin, but since the numbers 0 and 00 give the house a 5% advantage the house will always win in the long run.
            But it is still all chance, again which one of my three points do you disagree with?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              But it is still all chance, again which one of my three points do you disagree with?
              I disagree with Creationists playing silly semantic games to avoid dealing with empirically observed reality.

              Comment


              • #52
                Provided you are wearing a crash helmet of some kind I can recommend HeadlyvonNoggin (Jeremy Christian) speaking to David Smalley about why the Genesis account is scientifically accurate and there is no conflict between religion and science at about 96 minutes and on:
                http://www.spreaker.com/user/smalley...stian-listener
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  But it is still all chance, again which one of my three points do you disagree with?
                  The fourth one which you omitted: the result of having a particular mutation in a particular environmental niche is not random.

                  Roy
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    The fourth one which you omitted: the result of having a particular mutation in a particular environmental niche is not random.

                    Roy
                    What? That doesn't follow. The mutation is random, environmental niche is random, and the creature is in that niche by chance. How can the result also not be random since it did not have to turn out a particular way given the other three variables?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                      I disagree with Creationists playing silly semantic games to avoid dealing with empirically observed reality.
                      So I take it that you agree with my three points.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        From a Berkeley site on natural selection, the first two points:

                        1. There is variation in traits.

                        For example, some beetles are green and some are brown.

                        2.There is differential reproduction.

                        Since the environment can't support unlimited population growth, not all individuals get to reproduce to their full potential. In this example, green beetles tend to get eaten by birds and survive to reproduce less often than brown beetles do.
                        So the mutation that cause the differing beetle colors are random. And the fact that the beetles find themselves in a niche where the birds eat beetles, or where the birds prefer the green beetles, is also a chance event. So yes the brown beetle would then tend to survive and reproduce better at that point but the selection based on the actions of the birds in that specific environment and the environment itself were chance events.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          So I take it that you agree with my three points.
                          You take it wrong.

                          Why are you writing such chance sentences with chance words?

                          Obviously your home could randomly lose power and crash your computer, or your Internet ISP could randomly suffer an outage, or the TWEB server could randomly be smashed my a big meteorite.

                          That means everything you post here is just chance, don't you agree?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            What? That doesn't follow. The mutation is random, environmental niche is random, and the creature is in that niche by chance. How can the result also not be random since it did not have to turn out a particular way given the other three variables?
                            Oh yeah, forgot I was dealing with an idiot.

                            Poker hands are random, but the result of possessing a full house when your competitor has a flush is not.

                            Similarly, mutations may be random, but the result of possessing a particular mutation in a particular environment is not.

                            I've no doubt that as usual you'll try to twist this into something that fits your preconceived but incorrect propaganda point - or if you can't, simply claim I stated something entirely different. The only suspense is in waiting to see how.

                            This time try to remember that what you've previously written is immediately available for re-examination.

                            Roy
                            Last edited by Roy; 08-07-2014, 12:30 PM.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                              The words random and chance most often are used to mean a uniform probability distribution, where each outcome is equally likely.

                              Natural selection acting on different variations doesn't have a uniform probability distribution. Some variations will outperform others and become more numerous in the population.

                              The proper term is that the selection part of evolution is stochastic - meaning each event is unpredictable - but long term trends will always follow the nonuniform probability distribution.

                              That's why you may beat the house on any given roulette spin, but since the numbers 0 and 00 give the house a 5% advantage the house will always win in the long run.
                              Kenneth Miller, in his book "Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul," describes randomness as used here thusly:

                              We might begin by asking what is really meant by "random." One might say "anything can happen" in a random event, but that is not really true. For example, most people would quickly agree that the winner of tonight's state lottery drawing will be picked "at random," but that's not the same thing as saying that anyone can win. I know for certain, for example, that I'm not going to win—because I haven't bought a ticket. The winner may be drawn "randomly," but in this case that means picked from a well-defined population (the ticket holders) and not from all possible individuals who might be happy to receive a prize. So, if we can indeed apply the word “random” to a lottery pick, it means that we can surely use it to refer to an unpredictable outcome chosen from a limited number of possibilities.

                              In a lottery drawing the forces that constrain those possibilities are obvious. The randomly picked lottery winner is limited to the set of individuals who hold tickets. In evolution, the constraints may be less obvious, but they are still there. Although we often speak of mutations, changes in the genetic material, as being "random," that does not mean that all conceivable changes are equally possible or equally likely. The range of genetic changes is limited by the chemistry of DNA itself, by existing interactions within the cell and by preexisting constraints in the process of development. They are also quickly subjected to the forces of natural selection, which are most definitely nonrandom. In an organism that depends upon camouflage color or streamlined shape for survival changes that interfere with either would soon disappear. Changes that enhanced either would tend to persist and become more common. Natural selection tends to drive evolution in the directions it favors, and as such is far from a random process.

                              Like tonight's lottery pick, it would be more accurate therefore to describe the nature of genetic change as "unpredictable" instead of "random." We may expect that natural selection will favor the evolution of protective coloration in a certain species that is prey for a larger one and still not be able to predict what form that camouflage will ultimately take.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                                Originally posted by seer
                                So I take it that you agree with my three points.
                                You take it wrong.
                                That succinctly sums up seer's entire modus operandi..

                                He produces some ridiculous claim that demonstrates only that he's ignorant of the immediate subject, waits for some-one to respond tangentially, then simply assumes that because that some-one didn't directly dismiss his inanity, they must not only agree with whatever nonsense he's currently pushing but must also have made any argument that he chooses to refute.

                                Roy
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                136 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                48 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X