Why not deep time?

[Truthseeker]

You sure? Whitefield kinda differentiates between "created" (bara) and "asah" (made)

I checked page 10 of the PDF. You're right, it is "had created."

[Truthseeker]

GENESIS
1/ There was evening and there was morning. Duration 12 hours, give or take. Solar day is not being counted.
2/ Daylight day starts with morning and ends with evening. There was evening and there was morning: a daylight day is not being counted.
3/ Evening ends day 1's work ... Morning starts day 2's work: Nope - Evening and morning is counted as the same day.
4/ Evening ends day 1's work, with morning ending the day. Hebrew doesn't count day as ending with dawn.
5/ Logical conclusion: This is not intended to be understood as a literal 12 or 24 hour day.

The word rendered "And there was" is "vayhiy", which indicates a shift in time from the previous statement towards the future. ... Seems reasonable, as time wore on, evening came about and as time wore on, morning came about. Transition from present to future conditions is certainly indicated, as shown by the LXX use of εγενετο in these verses. It doesn't say any more than that though ... "in the course of time it became evening and in the course of time it became morning"

The word for "evening" now - how can that be a literal "sunset" when the sun doesn't show up until day 4? and the word translated as "morning" can't be a literal dawn for the same reason.

It could be speculated of course that the conditions equating to sunset and dawn don't arise from the newly formed universe, but from where God was while he was doing all this. In that case ... we don't know how much time passes between sunset and sunrise anyway - so we're still stuck with "era" as the only viable interpretation for yom in this passage.

EXODUS 20
If you really want 6 days here to be concordant with the 6 days of Genesis 1, the speculation above would suffice to explain it.
However - simply assuming that 6 days of solar time is analogous to 6 eras of creation time is enough to satisfy most, without having to deal in imaginary circumstances.

My theory now is that those eras actually overlap, or all of them refer to the same period of time, from the very beginning to when the sun became bright enough to make perceptible evenings and mornings. Era 1, though, in some sense is earlier, in that the creation of light was earlier than the division of "the water" (Genesis 1:6-8, Era 2), which in turn was earlier than the gathering up of the water under the sky (Genesis 1:9-10, Era 3), and so on. I suspect, though, that Genesis 1:15 did come before the earth's producing plants (Genesis 1:11); I don't know why Genesis would be out of chronological order here, though, but the Hebrews were less fincky with chronological order than we moderns are.

[klaus54]

The word rendered "And there was" is "vayhiy", which indicates a shift in time from the previous statement towards the future.

So either the "days" are periods of time between the creation events or they include the creation events. But Exodus 20:8-11 supposes that the days are used for creation events. Thus, the "days" include the period before the evening.

The use of "days" in the Exodus version of the Decalogue are a lesson on keeping the Sabbath. It's instructive that the prose in Ex 20:11 is missing from the Deuteronomy version.

I still don't understand FROM A STRICT YEC PERSPECTIVE how "Day 1" can start with "evening".

K54

[Quantum Weirdness]

The use of "days" in the Exodus version of the Decalogue are a lesson on keeping the Sabbath.

K54

Yes, that is correct. But where is it drawn from? The answer is Genesis 1:3-2:3. Exodus 20:8-11 supposes that God made things (worked) on these days and then rested on the seventh.

I still don't understand FROM A STRICT YEC PERSPECTIVE how "Day 1" can start with "evening".

Who are you asking this question to? Jorge?
Have I portrayed myself as a YEC? Apologies if I have.

[rogue06]

The use of "days" in the Exodus version of the Decalogue are a lesson on keeping the Sabbath. It's instructive that the prose in Ex 20:11 is missing from the Deuteronomy version.

I still don't understand FROM A STRICT YEC PERSPECTIVE how "Day 1" can start with "evening".

K54

Noted Hebrew linguist, Gleason Archer, who served as a translator for the NASB and NIV, and has long been a steadfast champion of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy along with being co-author of the highly regarded Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament explains the days thusly:

“Moses never intended the creative days to be understood as a mere twenty-four hours in length, and the information he included in chapter 2 logically precludes us from doing so. It is only by a neglect of proper hermeneutical methods that this impression ever became prevalent among God’s people, during the post-biblical era. Entirely apart from any findings of modern science or challenges of contemporary scientism, the twenty-four hour theory was never correct and should never have been believed – except by those who are bent on proving the presence of genuine contradictions in Scripture.”

With specific regard to the God's Sabbath analogy in Exodus 20:10-11 he said

"By no means does this demonstrate that 24-hour intervals were involved in the first six 'days,' any more than the eight-day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves that the wilderness wanderings under Moses occupied only eight days."

I should also add that FWIU while most of the various English translations of Exodus 20:11, “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and earth, the sea...” does make it sound as though God created everything within the confines of six calendar-days it needs to be understood that the preposition “in” does not appear in the original Hebrew. When the verse is properly translated (with "in" excluded), it becomes clear the creation “days” could have been long periods of time.

As Hugh Ross has noted, the reference to the Sabbath in Exodus 20 appears to be more about the pattern of the "days" and not about their actual duration. What is being stressed seems to be the pattern of work and rest (a ratio of six to one) and not the length of the creation days.

The very fact that in Leviticus 25:4 this pattern of work and rest is duplicated with six years of planting the land and one year of “Sabbath rest for the land" serves to reinforce the view that the analogy of our Sabbath to God’s Sabbath doesn't necessarily require that the creation “week” consisted of seven literal 24 hour long days.

[Truthseeker]

The use of "days" in the Exodus version of the Decalogue are a lesson on keeping the Sabbath. It's instructive that the prose in Ex 20:11 is missing from the Deuteronomy version.

I do not understand. For one thing, instructive in what way?

[klaus54]

Yes, that is correct. But where is it drawn from? The answer is Genesis 1:3-2:3. Exodus 20:8-11 supposes that God made things (worked) on these days and then rested on the seventh.



Who are you asking this question to? Jorge?
Have I portrayed myself as a YEC? Apologies if I have.

Exodus 20 uses the ANALOGY of Elohim's "work days". The fact that it's left out for the Deuteronomy Decalogue lessens its use for 6/24 YECism.

I aimed that remark at YECs. Whether you are one or not is irrelevant. Sorry if I falsely accused you.



K54

[klaus54]

I do not understand. For one thing, instructive in what way?

Obviously. The fact that it's not repeated in Deuteronomy weakens its use as a YEC 24/7(6) apologetic.

K54

[Quantum Weirdness]

Exodus 20 uses the ANALOGY of Elohim's "work days". The fact that it's left out for the Deuteronomy Decalogue lessens its use for 6/24 YECism.

I aimed that remark at YECs. Whether you are one or not is irrelevant. Sorry if I falsely accused you.



K54

And where do you think that analogy came from. Also, note that the Deut parallel has a reference to a historical event. (Slavery in Egypt)

[Kbertsche]

With specific regard to the God's Sabbath analogy in Exodus 20:10-11 he said

"By no means does this demonstrate that 24-hour intervals were involved in the first six 'days,' any more than the eight-day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves that the wilderness wanderings under Moses occupied only eight days."

My OT professor, at a conservative evangelical seminary, said that Ex 20:11 made him LESS inclined to interpret the Genesis Days literally. He thought it more likely that Moses had put the creation account into a literary structure of 6+1 days so that he could use this as a model for man's work-week and Sabbath in Ex. 20.

[klaus54]

And where do you think that analogy came from. Also, note that the Deut parallel has a reference to a historical event. (Slavery in Egypt)

I don't understand you. If the six-day creation deal were so important, one would think it would be repeated in Deuteronomy.

Au contraire, the 6/24 structure is more reasonable to consider a pattern for a work week + a Sabbath rest. That explanation fits the Documentary Hypothesis as well, with the first Genesis story being written hundreds of years after the second, presumably during the Chaldean captivity.

K54

P.S. The Exodus Decalogue was also written after the escape from Egyptian slavery. So I don't get what you're saying at.

[Quantum Weirdness]

I don't understand you. If the six-day creation deal were so important, one would think it would be repeated in Deuteronomy.

Yeah, here's JPH on that

In Exodus 20:11ff, it is said, it is becase of creation's seventh day; but in Deuteronomy 5:15 we are told:

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Critics would do well to recall here, though, that Exod. 20 and Deut. 5 are addressed to different sets of people with different experiences -- the first set had just been released from Egypt; the second set had never known slavery but were born during the Exodus; moreover, the Deuteronomy covenant would rule those who came afterwards who never knew the toil in Egypt.

The initial generation had been saved from Egyptian slavery by way of incredible miracles; for these people, the role of God as Creator was a central truth -- and they would need no reminder that they didn't get a day off in Egypt. But now, as the Israelites are about to cross the Jordan and enter into the unknown perils of taking over the Promised Land, they are better reminded of the Sabbath in light of the former (and unknown by experience) plight as slaves.
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/tentab.php

Au contraire, the 6/24 structure is more reasonable to consider a pattern for a work week + a Sabbath rest. That explanation fits the Documentary Hypothesis as well, with the first Genesis story being written hundreds of years after the second, presumably during the Chaldean captivity.

K54

P.S. The Exodus Decalogue was also written after the escape from Egyptian slavery. So I don't get what you're saying at.

Yes! It's a pattern. And using scripture to interpret scripture, we find that Exodus sheds light on the Genesis passages.

[klaus54]

i still don't see why the six-day creation is not mentioned in Deuteronomy. The Deuteronomy Decalogue certainly mentions the Sabbath, so why not remind them again of Elohim's "work week" and day of rest?

Anyway, Exodus 20 is used by YEC apologists to support a 6/24 creation in the first Genesis story. I never understood that exegesis, but that Moses used the first creation story to support keeping the Sabbath holy.

It doesn't seem to me in any way, shape, or form to support the YEC notion of a 6/24 creation by Elohim. (Actually God is referred to by the Tetragrammaton in Exodus 20 but not in Ge 1:1-2:3. That's an interesting fact as well.)

Ergo, the Exodus Decalogue does not obviate Deep Time. And I would conclude that even were I some kind of a Genesis literalist.

K54

[Quantum Weirdness]

i still don't see why the six-day creation is not mentioned in Deuteronomy. The Deuteronomy Decalogue certainly mentions the Sabbath, so why not remind them again of Elohim's "work week" and day of rest?

Anyway, Exodus 20 is used by YEC apologists to support a 6/24 creation in the first Genesis story. I never understood that exegesis, but that Moses used the first creation story to support keeping the Sabbath holy.

It doesn't seem to me in any way, shape, or form to support the YEC notion of a 6/24 creation by Elohim. (Actually God is referred to by the Tetragrammaton in Exodus 20 but not in Ge 1:1-2:3. That's an interesting fact as well.)

Ergo, the Exodus Decalogue does not obviate Deep Time. And I would conclude that even were I some kind of a Genesis literalist.

K54

That is correct. All I'm arguing is that the 6 "days" of Exodus 20:11 correspond to the 6 "days" of creation. Nothing about the length of the days

[tabibito]

“Moses never intended the creative days to be understood as a mere twenty-four hours in length, and the information he included in chapter 2 logically precludes us from doing so.

Yup - the creation of Eden, man, plants, animals, and woman occurred "in the day that God created heaven and earth" - problem being of course, that (with the exception of man) all that creating took place in Eden.

Given that
the tree of life is in paradise, according to Revelation.
and
Koine Greek translates Eden as "paradise" (where it doesn't simply transliterate Eden)

YEC doesn't even have an actual in-this-universe creation to pin its claims (for a 6 day creation) on.