Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Why didn't Elohim create FRESH granite?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why didn't Elohim create FRESH granite?

    In the YEC model of 24-hour days in Creation Week, dry land was created on the Third Day. Presumably this would include igneous rock such as granite. Granite is found in different locations with differing radiometric ages and in various intrusive environments as evidenced by, e.g., contact metamorphism of country rock. (Contact metamorphism also indicates multiple episodes of rock formation.)

    The philosophical/theological question for you YECs is why would Elohim not create "fresh" granite, i.e, igneous formations with the radiometric clocks "zeroed out"?

    Here's a webpage that gives a simple treatment of this topic from the hypothetical situation where a teacher would be required to teach YEC.

    http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/miracle.htm

    Originally posted by from the above URL
    The creationists are asking for equal time in science classrooms to teach that the Genesis stories are valid scientific interpretations of earth history. Equal time for creationists' interpretations are not likely to occur in secular universities and schools, but if the creationist are serious about equal time, then they should be open to granting equal time in their private Christian schools for presentations of both sides of a scientific issue --- a literalist biblical view and the modern science view. The origin, age, and other characteristic features of granite are such issues deserving equal time. The Bible says that the dry land was created on the Third Day of the Genesis Week (Genesis 1:9-10), and presumably, this is the time in which granite in continental masses was formed. If I were given equal time in a science classroom at a private, fundamentalist, Christian college or secondary school, advocating creationists' views, the following would be the kinds of information that I would provide for a modern scientific interpretation of granite to compare with the corresponding creationists' biblical interpretation.
    Originally posted by from above URL
    Absolute ages of granite bodies, rather than relative ages, can be obtained by using various radioactive isotopes; i.e., uranium-lead (U-Pb), potassium-argon (K-Ar), and rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr) age-dating techniques. For example, trace amounts of uranium and lead are dissolved in the granite melts. Uranium and lead ions have entirely different chemical characteristics, and they normally crystallize in entirely different minerals. Because the uranium ion is about the same size as the zirconium ion, uranium will substitute for zirconium and crystallize in zircon, but the lead ion goes elsewhere, commonly in potassium feldspar, as the granite magma crystallizes. But the isotope of uranium (238U) is radioactive and eventually decays to form lead (206Pb). When the granite first crystallizes and the radioactive uranium enters the zircon crystal (devoid of 206Pb), the clock is set and "ticking," and the uranium is constantly breaking down, eventually to produce new lead (206Pb) atoms trapped in the zircon crystals. Because this U-Pb decay-scheme is a constant, the ratio of uranium to lead in zircon populations in granite can be used to determine the age of a granite. World-wide the absolute ages of various granite bodies are consistent with the relative ages described above. Granites in the bottom of the Grand Canyon give Precambrian ages of 1.58 and 1.65 billion years, younger than the 1.7-1.85 billion-year-old Vishnu schist (Livingston et al., 1974), which the granites intrude, (and older than the overlying "Noachian Flood deposits" of about 540 million years for the Cambrian Tapeats sandstone at the bottom to the 225 million-year-old Permian Kaibab limestone at the top.

  • #2
    Technically, the account just says "appear", not actual creation. Btw, to any YEC's lurking on this thread, do YEC's interpret genesis 1:9-10 as the creation of land?
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
      Technically, the account just says "appear", not actual creation. Btw, to any YEC's lurking on this thread, do YEC's interpret genesis 1:9-10 as the creation of land?
      Ok, I guess we can always fiddle around with the wording.

      If granite "appeared" on Day 3, then when was it "created"?

      YECs don't have much leeway.

      In any case, why wasn't it made fresh?

      K54

      Comment


      • #4
        No takers yet? Not even Jorge?

        It's not just the radiometric ages of igneous rocks, but also their varied emplacements indicating history.

        Appearance of age the YECs can hand wave away, the appearance of history, not so much.

        K54

        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...vet_Sweden.jpg

        Comment


        • #5
          Jorge said he would read the OP and participate.

          Where be he?

          If God did create granite in one day or over a few hundred years <=6,018 years ago, why didn't HE zero out the radiometric clocks but instead set isotope ratios giving ages varying over hundreds of millions of years?

          And those granite intrusions seem to have occurred in numerous episodes.

          And the age and history correlate with the erosional conditions of the provenances of the igneous formations.

          This is an insurmountable problem for YEC, modulo a God who deceives.

          Why the silence?

          K54

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
            In the YEC model of 24-hour days in Creation Week, dry land was created on the Third Day. Presumably this would include igneous rock such as granite. Granite is found in different locations with differing radiometric ages and in various intrusive environments as evidenced by, e.g., contact metamorphism of country rock. (Contact metamorphism also indicates multiple episodes of rock formation.)

            The philosophical/theological question for you YECs is why would Elohim not create "fresh" granite, i.e, igneous formations with the radiometric clocks "zeroed out"?

            Here's a webpage that gives a simple treatment of this topic from the hypothetical situation where a teacher would be required to teach YEC.

            http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/miracle.htm
            In fact, how does one distinguish rock or dust left over from the creation event from that which formed naturally since then?

            How does one distinguish rain that fell because God said "Be thou on earth", from rain that fell simply because forces holding the drops aloft were overwhelmed by the force due to gravity?

            These kind of questions have an oddball effect on our super-hero Jorge. They make him either ignore me or suggest that I don't understand his brilliant arguments or suggest that I've been into the vodka again.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rwatts View Post
              In fact, how does one distinguish rock or dust left over from the creation event from that which formed naturally since then?

              How does one distinguish rain that fell because God said "Be thou on earth", from rain that fell simply because forces holding the drops aloft were overwhelmed by the force due to gravity?

              These kind of questions have an oddball effect on our super-hero Jorge. They make him either ignore me or suggest that I don't understand his brilliant arguments or suggest that I've been into the vodka again.
              Good points.

              But the intrusive igneous rock question bears directly on the issue of YE vs. Deep Time and Deep History.

              It's an issue that in and of itself destroys a YE paradigm, modulo of course some form of Omphalos ("Adam's Bellybutton" or "Grown Creation").

              The crickets are deafening.

              K54

              Comment


              • #8
                This question is easy to answer -- God used expired ingredients.
                "When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."

                — Alfred North Whitehead

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Duragizer View Post
                  This question is easy to answer -- God used expired ingredients.
                  Possibly.

                  What a cheapskate that Elohim is! Didn't He know Earth was extra extra special? And I thought the original Creation was "perfect" according to the YECs, even though the Hebrew word for that is not used in the narrative.

                  Or perhaps old granite is analogous to a finely-aged Cheddar?

                  K54

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                    In the YEC model of 24-hour days in Creation Week, dry land was created on the Third Day. Presumably this would include igneous rock such as granite. Granite is found in different locations with differing radiometric ages and in various intrusive environments as evidenced by, e.g., contact metamorphism of country rock. (Contact metamorphism also indicates multiple episodes of rock formation.)

                    The philosophical/theological question for you YECs is why would Elohim not create "fresh" granite, i.e, igneous formations with the radiometric clocks "zeroed out"?
                    Well obviously, God was trying to fool us into believing the Earth is older than it really is. And since God is perfect, the illusion is perfect too. And always will be.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Poor Debater View Post
                      Well obviously, God was trying to fool us into believing the Earth is older than it really is. And since God is perfect, the illusion is perfect too. And always will be.

                      But it's not only AGE, but HISTORY as well. That's even more difficult for YECs to explain. And so far in this thread, none have tried.

                      K54

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Poor Debater View Post
                        Well obviously, God was trying to fool us into believing the Earth is older than it really is. And since God is perfect, the illusion is perfect too. And always will be.

                        Yes, Geiger counters get perfect results.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Any instrument has measurement error. We take that into account when measuring half-lives and reporting uncertainty in ages.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JonF View Post
                            Any instrument has measurement error. We take that into account when measuring half-lives and reporting uncertainty in ages.
                            Is magma infinitely old? It doesn't have radioactivity.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                              Is magma infinitely old? It doesn't have radioactivity.
                              I'm not going down one of your endless roads, but magma has radiation aplenty. Magma is far too cool to have any effect on radioactive decay.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 11-23-2020, 10:25 PM
                              3 responses
                              31 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post Christianbookworm  
                              Started by rogue06, 11-22-2020, 08:25 AM
                              4 responses
                              58 views
                              3 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by TheLurch, 11-19-2020, 02:11 PM
                              1 response
                              30 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by rogue06, 11-10-2020, 08:50 AM
                              0 responses
                              18 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by shunyadragon, 11-09-2020, 06:36 PM
                              2 responses
                              17 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Working...
                              X