The Sense Of Smell: How Did It Happen?

[seer]

Ok so basically from what I read, we have olfactory receptors in the noise, these send signal via olfactory neurons to the olfactory cortex in the brain. Now since these are quite different I doubt if all three are regulated by the same gene. So how did this work? Some ancient creature experiences a mutation that creates some primitive kind of olfactory receptors, then this change is passed on until, one day by chance there is a mutation in the nervous system that just happens to create ability to process smells?

[HMS_Beagle]

Ok so basically from what I read, we have olfactory receptors in the noise, these send signal via olfactory neurons to the olfactory cortex in the brain. Now since these are quite different I doubt if all three are regulated by the same gene. So how did this work? Some ancient creature experiences a mutation that creates some primitive kind of olfactory receptors, then this change is passed on until, one day by chance there is a mutation in the nervous system that just happens to create ability to process smells?

Evolution of the sense of smell

None so blind as those who will not see.

[seer]

Evolution of the sense of smell

None so blind as those who will not see.

If you are going to argue by link please stay off my thread. BTW your link did not answer my question.

[HMS_Beagle]

If you are going to argue by link please stay off my thread.

That's not an argument, it's a link that answers your questions.

Even though you are bound and determined to stay as dirt ignorant as possible there's no reason to deny the lurkers access to the information you yourself are too lazy to look up.

[Jorge]

Evolution of the sense of smell

None so blind as those who will not see.

Wasn't it you that the other day gave me an indignant sermon about the no-no of arguing via links?
The question is rhetorical as I know full well - and so do you - that it was you.
Yet, here you are, doing exactly the same as you accuse others of doing. No surprise at all.

The only thing missing from your link was: "... and they lived happily ever after. THE END."

What you provided is an Evolutionary just-so story - one of many thousands.
It makes Swiss cheese look rock-solid in comparison.

For starters, the vast (incalculable) amounts of information (a term that I
know you don't comprehend) needed for even a "primitive" olfactory system
had to come from somewhere. Oh, wait, the Evolutionary Magic Wand can
do anything and so - PRESTO! - there it was!

When you have real, verifiable, observable, testable science, you can
come back to Nat Sci 301, Tiggy-Pooh. Just keep your Evo bedtime
stories away from this place.

Jorge

[seer]

That's not an argument, it's a link that answers your questions.

Even though you are bound and determined to stay as dirt ignorant as possible there's no reason to deny the lurkers access to the information you yourself are too lazy to look up.

Actually no HMS, it did not answer my question. I read the link twice.

Some ancient creature experiences a mutation that creates some primitive kind of olfactory receptors, then this change is passed on until, one day by chance there is a mutation in the nervous system that just happens to create the ability to process smells?

[HMS_Beagle]

Wasn't it you that the other day gave me an indignant sermon about the no-no of arguing via links?

That wasn't an argument El pollo grande. It was background information on the evolution of smell. That's the question that was asked in the thread's title "The Sense Of Smell: How Did It Happen?"

Quite a bit different than the ignorant chickenpoop you offered up as your argument for a young Earth in the thread you cowardly ran from.

[HMS_Beagle]

Actually no HMS, it did not answer my question. I read the link twice.

Some ancient creature experiences a mutation that creates some primitive kind of olfactory receptors, then this change is passed on until, one day by chance there is a mutation in the nervous system that just happens to create the ability to process smells?

No. The earliest animals had simple sensory cells on their exterior surfaces already connected to primitive brain cells as part of the rudimentary nervous system.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect electromagnetic radiation at certain wavelengths. These became the eyes and vision.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect vibrations present in water and air. These became ears and hearing.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect certain molecules present in water and air. These became the nose and sense of smell.

All of these sensing abilities slowly evolved in parallel to produce more capability in each on the senses.

That's the same correct answer you were given the last half dozen times you asked the same question. It isn't going to change.

[Truthseeker]

Dear Twitchy Tiggy, the question is, how did any sense ever come to be? For example, supposedly once upon a time, no creature had vision. None more blind than those. Then one day, O great marvel! A creature that could sense EM radiation! That was laughably primitive, but the creature could respond, however twitchingly, to some portion of the EM radiation spectrum. How in detail did that come to be, O great savant? I guess you are going to invoke the God of the Coincidences a few times.

[HMS_Beagle]

Dear Twitchy Tiggy, the question is, how did any sense ever come to be? For example, supposedly once upon a time, no creature had vision. None more blind than those. Then one day, O great marvel! A creature that could sense EM radiation! That was laughably primitive, but the creature could respond, however twitchingly, to some portion of the EM radiation spectrum. How in detail did that come to be, O great savant? I guess you are going to invoke the God of the Coincidences a few times.

As far as you're concerned it's all FM.

[seer]

No. The earliest animals had simple sensory cells on their exterior surfaces already connected to primitive brain cells as part of the rudimentary nervous system.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect electromagnetic radiation at certain wavelengths. These became the eyes and vision.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect vibrations present in water and air. These became ears and hearing.

Some surface sensory cells evolved to detect certain molecules present in water and air. These became the nose and sense of smell.

All of these sensing abilities slowly evolved in parallel to produce more capability in each on the senses.

That's the same correct answer you were given the last half dozen times you asked the same question. It isn't going to change.

And that is the question, even if you already had connected sensory cells that eventually developed eyes, ears, nose, the ability to taste etc... you still need a corresponding changed in the brain to process this information, and more changes as the inputs became more complex, more fully formed. Yes, I question the whole claim that these did or could evolve in parallel. That when sensory cells mutated into some primitive form of olfactory receptors (they did not start out that way BTW) you suddenly or even slowly get mutations in the brain that could recognize and process odors. The same with sight, hearing, taste, sense of touch etc... All would need corresponding random mutations in the brain to be useful. And the more complex they become the more corresponding mutations would be needed - and all by chance. I see no rational or compelling reason to accept this.

[HMS_Beagle]

And that is the question, even if you already had connected sensory cells that eventually developed eyes, ears, nose, the ability to taste etc... you still need a corresponding changed in the brain to process this information, and more changes as the inputs became more complex, more fully formed.

Yep, those changes happened in parallel. Remember you have the whole population evolving, not just one individual lineage.

Yes, I question the whole claim that these did or could evolve in parallel.

Are your questions based on anything other than your own untrained layman's personal incredulity? Sparko already boxed Jorge's ears over the examples of selective breeding producing massive changes. We've also gone from wolves to Chihuahuas and Great Danes in less than 10,000 years. How did all those mutations happen in parallel that changed the bones, the muscles, the blood vessels, the nerves, resized all the internal organs? Was it MAGIC?

I see no rational or compelling reason to accept this.

Then don't. Another layman's ignorance based misunderstanding won't slow science down one iota.

[Truthseeker]

Yep, those changes happened in parallel. Remember you have the whole population evolving, not just one individual lineage.
Are your questions based on anything other than your own untrained layman's personal incredulity?

Please no glib answers. I am willing to follow a detailed example even if only speculative that allows a probability estimate. If the example appears to require a number of years that far exceeds the age of the universe, i.e., many times 14 billion years, I would think some skepticism is justified.

Sparko already boxed Jorge's ears over the examples of selective breeding producing massive changes.

I am not sure that is relevant to the question of how for example life came to acquire vision.

We've also gone from wolves to Chihuahuas and Great Danes in less than 10,000 years. How did all those mutations happen in parallel that changed the bones, the muscles, the blood vessels, the nerves, resized all the internal organs?

same remark.

Then don't. Another layman's ignorance based misunderstanding won't slow science down one iota.

Please don't be so condescending; give us a well-worked-out example.

[HMS_Beagle]

Please no glib answers. I am willing to follow a detailed example even if only speculative that allows a probability estimate. If the example appears to require a number of years that far exceeds the age of the universe, i.e., many times 14 billion years, I would think some skepticism is justified.

I am not sure that is relevant to the question of how for example life came to acquire vision.

same remark.

Please don't be so condescending; give us a well-worked-out example.

Well-worked-out example appropriate for your maturity and sincerity levels here.

[seer]

Yep, those changes happened in parallel. Remember you have the whole population evolving, not just one individual lineage.



Are your questions based on anything other than your own untrained layman's personal incredulity? Sparko already boxed Jorge's ears over the examples of selective breeding producing massive changes. We've also gone from wolves to Chihuahuas and Great Danes in less than 10,000 years. How did all those mutations happen in parallel that changed the bones, the muscles, the blood vessels, the nerves, resized all the internal organs? Was it MAGIC?

Well no, tell me HMS, say by chance you get a mutation that creates olfactory receptors, how many chance mutation in the central nervous system do you think it would take before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors? Why would any mutation cause the central nervous system to recognize odors in the first place? And this is not merely about the difference between neutral, beneficial or harmful mutations, it is about the chance of a specific mutation happening that could recognize odors and process that information.

And remember with breeding there is intelligent control with a goal, that is not by chance. And we are working with existing attributes.