The Sense Of Smell: How Did It Happen?

[HMS_Beagle]

Well no, tell me HMS, say by chance you get a mutation that creates olfactory receptors, how many chance mutation in the central nervous system do you think it would take before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors?

For a simple system you don't have to to "recognize and process", just detect. When you touch your hand to a hot stove you don't consciously go "hmmm, hot stove, temperature of 200 deg, better move my hand 6"' to the left". You detect the pain and you flinch.

Why would any mutation cause the central nervous system to recognize odors in the first place?

Because it helps survival. If you can detect a molecule given off by a predator you can better avoid that predator. if you can detect a molecule given off by your prey you have a better chance to eat.

And this is not merely about the difference between neutral, beneficial or harmful mutations, it is about the chance of a specific mutation happening that could recognize odors and process that information.

Being able to detect your surroundings is a beneficial trait. Doesn't have to be specific or sophisticated, only more helpful than not having it.

And remember with breeding there is intelligent control with a goal, that is not by chance.

LOL! The usual creationist dodge. Scientists can never provide evidence for evolution because they used intelligence to set up the experiment. Here's a hint - artificial selection is still evolution where humans are the natural selection pressure.

And we are working with existing attributes.

Evolution works by modifying existing attributes. How many time do you need that explained to you?

[seer]

For a simple system you don't have to to "recognize and process", just detect. When you touch your hand to a hot stove you don't consciously go "hmmm, hot stove, temperature of 200 deg, better move my hand 6"' to the left". You detect the pain and you flinch.

No duh! But the brain still has to have the ability to process that information. The pain registers in the brain, sensory nerve fibers sent the pain signals to the brain, then you react.

Because it helps survival. If you can detect a molecule given off by a predator you can better avoid that predator. if you can detect a molecule given off by your prey you have a better chance to eat.

Being able to detect your surroundings is a beneficial trait. Doesn't have to be specific or sophisticated, only more helpful than not having it.

That is a non-answer. The point was not only would you need a beneficial change, you would need a beneficial change in the nervous system that could recognize and process odors. I'm not saying that would not be helpful, but more than unlikely. Now compound that for taste, sight, touch, hearing. You could add the respiratory system and digestive system which also interact with the brain. That as all these novel functions come on line you just happen by chance to get corresponding mutations in the central nervous system that can interact with, control, or process information from these various organs. Then compound that for an increasing complex interrelated system, the eye for instance, and the necessary complexity in our visual cortex to process greater information coming from a more complex eye.

Go back to the sense of smell - how many neutral, beneficial (beneficial for something else, besides smell) or harmful mutations, would you have to go through before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors? 1 million? 10 million? 100 Million?

[HMS_Beagle]

No duh! But the brain still has to have the ability to process that information. The pain registers in the brain, sensory nerve fibers sent the pain signals to the brain, then you react.

That is a non-answer. The point was not only would you need a beneficial change, you would need a beneficial change in the nervous system that could recognize and process odors. I'm not saying that would not be helpful, but more than unlikely. Now compound that for taste, sight, touch, hearing. You could add the respiratory system and digestive system which also interact with the brain. That as all these novel functions come on line you just happen by chance to get corresponding mutations in the central nervous system that can interact with, control, or process information from these various organs. Then compound that for an increasing complex interrelated system, the eye for instance, and the necessary complexity in our visual cortex to process greater information coming from a more complex eye.

Go back to the sense of smell - how many neutral, beneficial (beneficial for something else, besides smell) or harmful mutations, would you have to go through before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors? 1 million? 10 million? 100 Million?

I see we've reached the point we always do where you don your impenetrable Helmet Of Ignorance^tm and fall back on regurgitating your layman's misunderstandings of processes that have already been explained to you a dozen times.

Oh well, I tried.

[seer]

I see we've reached the point we always do where you don your impenetrable Helmet Of Ignorance^tm and fall back on regurgitating your layman's misunderstandings of processes that have already been explained to you a dozen times.

Oh well, I tried.

See that is the problem HMS, we have no earthly idea how many neutral, beneficial or harmful mutations, you would have to go through before you get a mutation that could specifically recognize and process odors in the brain. But we all just assume that it could or did happen - by chance.

[Jorge]

And that is the question, even if you already had connected sensory cells that eventually developed eyes, ears, nose, the ability to taste etc... you still need a corresponding changed in the brain to process this information, and more changes as the inputs became more complex, more fully formed. Yes, I question the whole claim that these did or could evolve in parallel. That when sensory cells mutated into some primitive form of olfactory receptors (they did not start out that way BTW) you suddenly or even slowly get mutations in the brain that could recognize and process odors. The same with sight, hearing, taste, sense of touch etc... All would need corresponding random mutations in the brain to be useful. And the more complex they become the more corresponding mutations would be needed - and all by chance. I see no rational or compelling reason to accept this.

Suggestion: don't waste too much time with Beagle (Tiggy). He embodies the old proverb of trying to teach a pig how to sing (you definitely won't succeed but you will annoy the pig ).

On a more positive note, you may recall my MEMS concept (Mass-Energy Management Systems). Anyway, I recently ran across this extremely interesting item regarding kinesin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbycQf1TbM0 ... Kinesin serves as a sub-sub-sub... sub structure in our body's overall MEMS. WOW!

I bring it up because it shows the vast, almost incalculable amount of integrated information that must be present just so that we may continue to live. All of the sub-systems that you've been speaking of (smell, sight, touch, etc.) must, of course, contain and utilize this integrated information.

I've said it a hundred times before: the amount of BLIND FAITH that is exercised by Evolutionists exceeds by scores of orders of magnitude the amount of reasonable faith that we Biblical Creationists must exercise.

Jorge

[seer]

On a more positive note, you may recall my MEMS concept (Mass-Energy Management Systems). Anyway, I recently ran across this extremely interesting item regarding kinesin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbycQf1TbM0 ... Kinesin serves as a sub-sub-sub... sub structure in our body's overall MEMS. WOW!

Jorge

Amazing! It make you want to fall on your face and worship the great gods of Time and Chance!!!

[HMS_Beagle]

See that is the problem HMS, we have no earthly idea how many neutral, beneficial or harmful mutations, you would have to go through before you get a mutation that could specifically recognize and process odors in the brain. But we all just assume that it could or did happen - by chance.

We have no earthly idea how many footsteps Lewis and Clark took on their epic journey across the continent in 1804 - 1806 but we have substantial evidence the trip actually happened.

Why do you think not knowing a specific number of mutations somehow negates all the other evidence we do have?

[HMS_Beagle]

On a more positive note, you may recall my MEMS concept (Mass-Energy Management Systems). Anyway, I recently ran across this extremely interesting item regarding kinesin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbycQf1TbM0 ... Kinesin serves as a sub-sub-sub... sub structure in our body's overall MEMS. WOW!

Jorge

Oh yeah, MEMS. That's where Sam showed you how under your definition a river qualifies as a MEMS whereupon you promptly chickenpooed yourself and ran clucking from the the thread. Another of your epic mental "achievements".

[seer]

We have no earthly idea how many footsteps Lewis and Clark took on their epic journey across the continent in 1804 - 1806 but we have substantial evidence the trip actually happened.

No, but you could easily figure it out. We know how many miles, we know the exact route, how many steps in a mile, etc... We could have a very good idea.

Why do you think not knowing a specific number of mutations somehow negates all the other evidence we do have?

Because it is the mutations that are necessary to drive the novelty so that natural selection can save them. And if we run into astronomically high numbers to get the necessary corresponding changes then the whole process becomes questionable. At least the idea that this all happened by chance.

[Roy]

I bring it up because it [kinesin]shows the vast, almost incalculable amount of integrated information that must be present just so that we may continue to live.

If that's only almost incalculable, it must be calculable. So how do you calculate it?

Unless this claim is just another Jorge invention...

Roy

[Roy]

Go back to the sense of smell - how many neutral, beneficial (beneficial for something else, besides smell) or harmful mutations, would you have to go through before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors? 1 million? 10 million? 100 Million?

Why don't you get Jorge, who supposedly comprehends the essentials of evolutionary theory, to explain the false assumptions in your question?

Hint: start with those mutations that are beneficial for something else, beside smell.

Roy

[seer]

Hint: start with those mutations that are beneficial for something else, beside smell.

Roy

I understand that and mentioned it: how many neutral, beneficial (beneficial for something else, besides smell) or harmful mutations, would you have to go through before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors?


So if you have a point present it...

[HMS_Beagle]

I understand that and mentioned it: how many neutral, beneficial (beneficial for something else, besides smell) or harmful mutations, would you have to go through before you happened on one that could recognize and process odors?


So if you have a point present it...

Sigh. There wasn't just one magic "sense of smell" mutation. There were probably thousands or even tens of thousands over the last 500 million years, spread over billions of animals, happening one at a time, each adding very slightly to the overall capability. The exact number is lost to the depths of time but is completely irrelevant to the fact we have ample other evidence for the evolution of the senses.

Your ability to not understand simple concepts is staggering.

[seer]

Sigh. There wasn't just one magic "sense of smell" mutation. There were probably thousands or even tens of thousands over the last 500 million years, spread over billions of animals, happening one at a time, each adding very slightly to the overall capability. The exact number is lost to the depths of time but is completely irrelevant to the fact we have ample other evidence for the evolution of the senses.

That does not change my point HMS, I did not say that there is necessarily just one mutation. But at one point you did need a mutation(s) that created at least primitive olfactory receptors. From there you still needed corresponding changes in the nervous system recognize and process odors, even on a lower level. No matter how many creatures involved. Then as your olfactory receptors became more specialized, recognized more and different odors the more specialized that part of the brain needs to become, via corresponding changes, to process this increased information. Now if you claim that the numbers are lost to time, then there is no way of knowing if this was even remotely possible in the first place. And this is not completely irrelevant, though you want to wave your hands, because it goes to the whole idea of all this happening by chance. Not that some form of evolution or descent from a common ancestor if off the table - just the idea that it all happened by chance.

[HMS_Beagle]

And this is not completely irrelevant, though you want to wave your hands, because it goes to the whole idea of all this happening by chance. Not that some form of evolution or descent from a common ancestor if off the table - just the idea that it all happened by chance.

No one in science says or thinks evolution happens entirely by chance.