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Alternative plane design

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  • Alternative plane design

    I'm too lazy to find the thread, but we had been discussing how all airliner designs are variations on a single theme. I'd mentioned that fuel efficiency was one thing that might drive adoption of new approaches, and there's been a recent test of one such design:

    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/09...-first-flight/

    It's still very early testing, but aerodynamic models suggest that the design should be able to shave 20% off fuel use.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  • #2
    I love this stuff!

    From the "Flying Wing" to the "Flying V" --- interesting. Great example of "thinking outside the tube".



    Another article on the same topic...

    “Flying-V” airplane design promises fuel savings, but there’s a catch

    Interesting comment about the effect of the banking on the outer part of the wing where, being farther from the central axis, you'd feel the turn more dramatically.

    On Monday, news started to spread about a radical new design of passenger plane. Shaped like the letter V, (and called the Flying-V), it does away with a conventional fuselage and even the middle bit of a blended wing body design—this plane is all wing. As a result, sections of the wings are much thicker than on a normal passenger jet, with a pair of engine nacelles mounted above the rear trailing edges. Passengers sit along the leading edges, with fuel and cargo also stored in the wings. The advantage of this unusual shape? It could carry as many passengers as an Airbus A350—314 of them in a standard configuration—but use 20 percent less fuel for the same journey.

    The design is courtesy of TU Delft, a Dutch university, which has been partnering with Dutch airline KLM on the project to make air travel more sustainable. "Radically new and highly energy-efficient aircraft designs such as the Flying-V are important in this respect, as are new forms of propulsion. Our ultimate aim is one of emission-free flight. Our cooperation with KLM offers a tremendous opportunity to bring about real change," said Henri Werij, dean of the faculty of aerospace engineering at TU Delft.

    A flying model is meant to take to the air during KLM's 100th anniversary celebration in October, along with a full-size mockup of part of the interior. The interior will also be a little out of the ordinary, according to Peter Vink, a professor of applied ergonomics and design at TU Delft. "The new shape of the aircraft means we have exciting opportunities to design the interior, making flying more comfortable for passengers. For instance, as part of the Flying-V research, we’re looking into new options to having a rest or taking meals on a plane," he said.

    Sadly for the Flying-V, it will probably fail like the blended wing body designs we've seen down the years. It's for the same reason, too: airplanes bank as they turn. That's not much of a problem in a conventional airliner design, where passengers are never that far from the plane's central axis. But as you move farther out from that central axis, the effect becomes a lot more pronounced.

    That said, it's easy to be a naysayer. Climate change isn't going away on its own and neither is commercial air travel, so I'm all for fresh ideas. And now that I think about it, some people will queue for hours to ride roller coasters—maybe they'd actually enjoy it?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      I was really curious about what the seating layout would be....

      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Neat It resembles the "plane is the wing" design of space shuttle and other similar space vehicles
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I love this stuff!

          From the "Flying Wing" to the "Flying V" --- interesting. Great example of "thinking outside the tube".



          Another article on the same topic...

          “Flying-V” airplane design promises fuel savings, but there’s a catch

          Interesting comment about the effect of the banking on the outer part of the wing where, being farther from the central axis, you'd feel the turn more dramatically.

          On Monday, news started to spread about a radical new design of passenger plane. Shaped like the letter V, (and called the Flying-V), it does away with a conventional fuselage and even the middle bit of a blended wing body design—this plane is all wing. As a result, sections of the wings are much thicker than on a normal passenger jet, with a pair of engine nacelles mounted above the rear trailing edges. Passengers sit along the leading edges, with fuel and cargo also stored in the wings. The advantage of this unusual shape? It could carry as many passengers as an Airbus A350—314 of them in a standard configuration—but use 20 percent less fuel for the same journey.

          The design is courtesy of TU Delft, a Dutch university, which has been partnering with Dutch airline KLM on the project to make air travel more sustainable. "Radically new and highly energy-efficient aircraft designs such as the Flying-V are important in this respect, as are new forms of propulsion. Our ultimate aim is one of emission-free flight. Our cooperation with KLM offers a tremendous opportunity to bring about real change," said Henri Werij, dean of the faculty of aerospace engineering at TU Delft.

          A flying model is meant to take to the air during KLM's 100th anniversary celebration in October, along with a full-size mockup of part of the interior. The interior will also be a little out of the ordinary, according to Peter Vink, a professor of applied ergonomics and design at TU Delft. "The new shape of the aircraft means we have exciting opportunities to design the interior, making flying more comfortable for passengers. For instance, as part of the Flying-V research, we’re looking into new options to having a rest or taking meals on a plane," he said.

          Sadly for the Flying-V, it will probably fail like the blended wing body designs we've seen down the years. It's for the same reason, too: airplanes bank as they turn. That's not much of a problem in a conventional airliner design, where passengers are never that far from the plane's central axis. But as you move farther out from that central axis, the effect becomes a lot more pronounced.

          That said, it's easy to be a naysayer. Climate change isn't going away on its own and neither is commercial air travel, so I'm all for fresh ideas. And now that I think about it, some people will queue for hours to ride roller coasters—maybe they'd actually enjoy it?
          They can use the space toward the middle for passengers and use the other space for Amazon deliveries. It would be interesting to see a big change like this.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            I'm too lazy to find the thread, but we had been discussing how all airliner designs are variations on a single theme. I'd mentioned that fuel efficiency was one thing that might drive adoption of new approaches, and there's been a recent test of one such design:

            https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/09...-first-flight/

            It's still very early testing, but aerodynamic models suggest that the design should be able to shave 20% off fuel use.
            Yeah I was the one asking why the airplane designs haven't changed in the last 50 years. This looks pretty neat.

            I am wondering about the banking mentioned in Cow Poke's article. Would it really be a problem? Seems to me as the whole airplane banks the same amount and angle, the centrifigal force the keeps the passengers and things in place would be the same across the whole plane. You might feel something if they did a quick start to the bank it would result in a bit of torque, meaning the lower half would have less or negative G's and the upper half would have more. But most airliners do really gentile turns. Of course I am not an engineer so I may not know what I am talking about.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Yeah I was the one asking why the airplane designs haven't changed in the last 50 years. This looks pretty neat.

              I am wondering about the banking mentioned in Cow Poke's article. Would it really be a problem? Seems to me as the whole airplane banks the same amount and angle, the centrifigal force the keeps the passengers and things in place would be the same across the whole plane. You might feel something if they did a quick start to the bank it would result in a bit of torque, meaning the lower half would have less or negative G's and the upper half would have more. But most airliners do really gentile turns. Of course I am not an engineer so I may not know what I am talking about.
              I'd think it's the same principle as riding in the back of the bus, and feeling the bumps more than center line --- it's just an exaggerated banking feeling, which I don't think would be too bad at all. After all, civilian airliners don't bank or jink like military aircraft.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I was really curious about what the seating layout would be....

                I'd hate to be sitting behind (below) the person who just ate baked beans.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I'd think it's the same principle as riding in the back of the bus, and feeling the bumps more than center line --- it's just an exaggerated banking feeling, which I don't think would be too bad at all. After all, civilian airliners don't bank or jink like military aircraft.
                  Yeah, I think turbulence would be the worse, if the plane rocks back and forth in a twisting motion. Then it would feel like being on a roller coaster.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Faber View Post
                    I'd hate to be sitting behind (below) the person who just ate baked beans.
                    And, due to cabin pressure, things do tend to get somewhat gassy on planes. Maybe the "upper" seats are premiums, and the lower ones are discounted.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      And, due to cabin pressure, things do tend to get somewhat gassy on planes. Maybe the "upper" seats are premiums, and the lower ones are discounted.
                      I was going to post on this issue but decided to totally stay away from discussing that topic.

                      Comment

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