Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Flat Earthers and academic credentials

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Flat Earthers and academic credentials

    Well, I was discussing with a fundamentalist these days, and I pointed out how I resorted to PhD people and peer-reviewed research to back up my science claims. In addition of accusing me of ''having no opinion of your own'', he said that ''Phd's aren't always right'' (which is something obvious to attest, to say the least).

    An an example of the latter, he pointed out that Einstein and Galileo thought that the Earth was ''round'', and some ''loony'' (by his own admission) scholars currently claim that the Earth is flat.

    But, I thought: hey, wait? Do any ''Flat Earthers'' actually have PhD's in the relevant scientific fields, or have any published peer-reviewed literature?

    Do you guys have any info on this?

  • #2
    You are guaranteed not to have flat earthers in peer-reviewed literature since this would be too controversial to be considered for publication.

    I was looking at some stuff on this since there was a lot of hype in 2019 about it. The closest I saw were a couple airline pilots that found indications that the earth was "flat." One group wanted to get some ring laser gyros to do some tests.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      You are guaranteed not to have flat earthers in peer-reviewed literature since this would be too controversial to be considered for publication.
      They wouldn't have any peer-reviewed articles in support of a flat earth, but they could have peer-reviewed articles and still be flat earthers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Seeker View Post
        Well, I was discussing with a fundamentalist these days, and I pointed out how I resorted to PhD people and peer-reviewed research to back up my science claims. In addition of accusing me of ''having no opinion of your own'', he said that ''Phd's aren't always right'' (which is something obvious to attest, to say the least).

        An an example of the latter, he pointed out that Einstein and Galileo thought that the Earth was ''round'', and some ''loony'' (by his own admission) scholars currently claim that the Earth is flat.

        But, I thought: hey, wait? Do any ''Flat Earthers'' actually have PhD's in the relevant scientific fields, or have any published peer-reviewed literature?

        Do you guys have any info on this?
        Did he give any specific names of who the "loony scholars" in question were?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Seeker View Post
          Well, I was discussing with a fundamentalist these days, and I pointed out how I resorted to PhD people and peer-reviewed research to back up my science claims. In addition of accusing me of ''having no opinion of your own'', he said that ''Phd's aren't always right'' (which is something obvious to attest, to say the least).

          An an example of the latter, he pointed out that Einstein and Galileo thought that the Earth was ''round'', and some ''loony'' (by his own admission) scholars currently claim that the Earth is flat.

          But, I thought: hey, wait? Do any ''Flat Earthers'' actually have PhD's in the relevant scientific fields, or have any published peer-reviewed literature?

          Do you guys have any info on this?
          I'm not aware of any flat earther with a PhD, but that doesn't mean there's not one out there.

          Your friend is correct in that, if you look hard enough, you can find someone with a PhD who's willing to say almost ANYTHING. The training involved should help people recognize the flaws in their own reasoning, the risks of Dunning-Kruger, etc. But it clearly doesn't stick for everyone.

          (And i say this as someone with a PhD).
          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            I'm not aware of any flat earther with a PhD, but that doesn't mean there's not one out there.

            Your friend is correct in that, if you look hard enough, you can find someone with a PhD who's willing to say almost ANYTHING. The training involved should help people recognize the flaws in their own reasoning, the risks of Dunning-Kruger, etc. But it clearly doesn't stick for everyone.

            (And i say this as someone with a PhD).
            The PhD may have come from a perforated roll, or mail order with two box tops. Education does not enlighten, and there are many . . . ah PHDs that believe in weird stuff like YEC Creation of our physical existence.

            There was a reasonably educated member of Tweb in the past that argued persistently for a Flat Earth, but I do not remember him much.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-12-2020, 07:37 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeareís Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The PhD may have come from a perforated roll, or mail order with two box tops. Education does not enlighten, and there are many . . . ah PHDs that believe in weird stuff like YEC Creation of our physical existence.

              There was a reasonably educated member of Tweb in the past that argued persistently for a Flat Earth, but I do not remember him much.
              I assume you're thinking of JohnMartin, though I don't really know what his education credentials were. I'm also not sure I would say he "argued persistently for a Flat Earth" because while he presented arguments for it, his attitude was more one of thinking it was a possibility (e.g. see here).

              What he definitely did argue persistently for, and was a staunch believer in, was geocentrism.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                I assume you're thinking of JohnMartin, though I don't really know what his education credentials were. I'm also not sure I would say he "argued persistently for a Flat Earth" because while he presented arguments for it, his attitude was more one of thinking it was a possibility (e.g. see here).

                What he definitely did argue persistently for, and was a staunch believer in, was geocentrism.
                I believe both arguments are equally problematic. Even arguing for the possibility is a stretch outside reality. As I remember John Martin had reasonable grasp of math and was articulate in his argument, which indicated some college.

                I believe there is a Flat Earth Society, and one that believes of Geocentrism, maybe both
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-12-2020, 08:51 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeareís Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                  I'm not aware of any flat earther with a PhD, but that doesn't mean there's not one out there.
                  On the other hand, I'm aware of a large contingent of PhDs and grad students in math and science who joined the Flat Earth Society in the 90s. But if you please, "flat earther" is a dismissive insult that appeals only to dysphonic globularists.

                  We prefer Platygśanists.

                  The Flat-Earth Society
                  The Flat Earth FAQ
                  Frequently asked questions about the Flat Earth paradigm and related phenomena.

                  1. What is the Earth's shape?
                  The Earth is flat. It is shaped in the form of a pentagon, and thus has five corners.

                  2. What is the "middle corner"?
                  If one was to draw a line from each corner to the centre of the opposing side of the Earth, the line would intersect in the middle of the Flat Earth. This place is known as the Middle Corner.

                  3. Hey, wait a minute, that is not a real corner...
                  So? The equator of the spherical earthers is an imaginary line as well. Does this mean that their model does not have a northern and a southern hemisphere? You cannot count in imaginary numbers, but does that mean that they do not exist?

                  4. What about the northern and southern hemisphere?
                  Globularist rot. This implies the Earth being a SPHERE, which it is not. The Earth has, however, an Inner and Outer Ring.

                  5. What is Platygśanism?
                  Platygśanism is the scientific hypothesis which holds that the Earth is flat or planar in topology.

                  5. Does the "middle corner" prove that 5=6?
                  Yes.

                  6. How are continents located on the Flat Earth.
                  Generally, the "southernmost" continents are on the outside, whereas the "northern" ones are on the inside.

                  7. Does this mean that the Middle Corner is at the North Pole?
                  Not necessarily. It may be anywhere in the northern part of the Earth.

                  8. What is, then, at the south pole?
                  The Edge of the World. It is surrounded, at least in places, by a huge mountain range.

                  9. Where are the corners of the Earth?
                  Opinion is still divided on this issue. Conventional wisdom places the five corners at the following locations:

                  * Corner 1: the northernmost extent of Lake Mikhayl in Tunguska, Siberia
                  * Corner 2: Greenland or Iceland (Ultima Thule); though some researchers place it at Brimstone Head, on Fogo Island, Newfoundland, Canada.
                  * Corner 3: Easter Island.
                  * Corner 4: Uncertain; possibly Hokkaido (Japan), Lhasa (Nepal), or a desolate location in Outer Mongolia.
                  * Corner 5: Somewhere near the south of Tasmania or New Zealand, though some researchers have suggested somewhere in the vicinity of the South Pacific island of Ponape.

                  9. How long is the edge of the Earth?
                  The edge of the Earth is infinitely long.

                  10. Does this mean that the Earth has infinite area?
                  No, no more than England does. See Benoit Mandelbrot for more information.

                  11. Does this fit in with the Hollow Earth theory?
                  Yes. Beneath the Earth, or hanging off the edges, is a land populated by either green-skinned women or Nazis. All those claiming to have seen this have misinterpreted it to fit in with the spurious and false Spherical Earth theory.

                  12. Did H. P. Lovecraft know about the Flat Earth?
                  Yes. Read At the Mountains of Madness. The choice of the South Pole by the Old Ones makes more sense with the Flat Earth Theory.

                  13. What about gravity?
                  Gravity is a lie invented by the purveyors of the inherently false spherical Earth theory. The theory of gravity has never been proven. There is no gravity, only inertia. The Earth moves through space like a giant elevator. We do not fall off because we are kept down by inertia. The Earth has inertia.
                  There is a school of thought which states, however, that the Earth does not move through space, but rather that it rests on the back of a giant turtle, and that what we call gravity is, in fact, the turtle's animal magnetism.

                  14. What about photographs of the Earth from the moon?
                  Most of these are fake. It is well known that the "moon landing" was faked. The film of what is claimed to be the moon was taken in the desert in the US state of Arizona.

                  There exist some genuine photographs from high altitudes, which appear to the untrained eye to show a spherical Earth. The reason for this effect is that the Earth's atmosphere becomes denser the further one ascends, after thinning out at about 5 miles. This causes light to be refracted more at high altitudes, giving the appearance of a spherical Earth.

                  The reason the atmosphere becomes denser is the increased pressure. If not for this extreme pressure, the sun, and all stars, would not be able to hold together but would gradually dissipate in accordance with the gas laws, and Brownian motion (see any basic school physics text). Further proof that there is atmosphere all the way between the earth and the sun, moon, etc, is that heat from the sun warms the earth. Heat cannot travel through a vacuum, as anyone who has ever used a vacuum flask knows. Real astronauts would need pressure suits to protect them from the incredibly high pressures they would encounter.

                  15. How does the Earth move through space?
                  There are two schools of thought: one which states that the Earth is constantly moving in a straight line, and the other which states that the Earth is moving in a toroidal shape. There is a popular opinion which states that the Earth does not move as such, but rather that space moves around the Earth.

                  16. Can ships be 'lost' at the edge of the Earth?
                  Yes, at least in places where there are no mountains preventing this from occurring. The edge of the Earth is, in places a tremendous waterfall, and anything going over the edge will disappear into the aether. This can also happen to aircraft which fly off the edge.

                  17. If large amounts of water disappear off the edge, where does all the water come from?
                  This is an argument for the theory that the Earth has a toroidal orbit. In a toroidal orbit, all the water which disappears off the edges falls back to Earth as rain when the Earth revolves about its orbit. This also means that the inhabitants of ships and aircraft lost in space will, in some occasions, return to Earth.

                  18. Does this explain Fortean phenomena, such as frog-falls?
                  Perhaps. One is tempted to believe that the frogs, fish and other beings are somehow expelled into space off the edge of the Earth. However, this conflicts with the long-established Mad Fishmonger theory, which states that showers of fish are the work of a deranged fishmonger and his cohorts. (See The Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson for more details.)

                  19. What is the "Springfield Effect"?
                  The Springfield Effect is the name given to the phenomenon by which every place named Springfield is hard-linked in hyperspace to every other place of this name. In other words, there is only one place named Springfield, but it is "linked" to various locations in the world.

                  20. Does Idaho exist
                  No. The existence of Idaho is a lie, fabricated by a conspiracy of cartographers, as is England (see question 10).

                  21. What about North Dakota?
                  That doesn't exist either.

                  22. Any other places which are believed to exist but really don't?
                  Yes, Australia. And then there are the cryptogeographica, places such as Kadath, Carcosa, Hobbiton, Narnia, Hy-Brasil, Hell and such whose existence has not been satisfactorily proven.

                  This FAQ was compiled by Lee Harvey Oswald Smith, KSC EMF, Chairperson dei gratia, Flat Earth Society, with the assistance of members of the Society and independent researchers; last updated: 43 Cfn 3163
                  copyright © 1996-2003 The Flat Earth Society, unless otherwise specified.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In 2017-18 there was a bit of a dust up concerning a doctoral dissertation proposed by a student at the University of Sfax in Tunisia which supported a geocentric model as well as a young earth. This produced a denouncement from the Belgian astrophysicist YaŽl Nazť (who founded the Tunisian Astronomical Society).

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just did a search and found no one with such degrees that hold to Flat Earth except YaŽl Nazť.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                        I just did a search and found no one with such degrees that hold to Flat Earth except YaŽl Nazť.
                        Apparently they could not afford the $19.95 and two box tops.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeareís Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          In 2017-18 there was a bit of a dust up concerning a doctoral dissertation proposed by a student at the University of Sfax in Tunisia which supported a geocentric model as well as a young earth. This produced a denouncement from the Belgian astrophysicist YaŽl Nazť (who founded the Tunisian Astronomical Society).
                          YaŽl Nazť didn't found the Tunisian Astronomical Society; from what I can tell, that was someone named Hafedh Ateb, and he was the one who denounced the dissertation. YaŽl Nazť was someone who wrote an article about the controversy later on.
                          Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                          I just did a search and found no one with such degrees that hold to Flat Earth except YaŽl Nazť.
                          Does she? The only thing I can find in regards to her and Flat Earth is that she wrote an article in the Skeptical Inquirer about the above controversy. Unfortunately, I can only read the first few sentences of her article without a subscription, so I suppose she could have then spent the whole thing talking about how the Earth is flat... but I have some major doubts that the Skeptical Inquirer published an essay arguing that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Apparently they could not afford the $19.95 and two box tops.
                            What was it that Jorge spent for his? $49 or something like that.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                              I just did a search and found no one with such degrees that hold to Flat Earth except YaŽl Nazť.
                              FWICT Nazť wrote an article for Skeptical Inquirer where she denounced it: "A Doctoral Dissertation on a Geocentric Flat Earth: 'Zetetic' Astronomy at the University Level"

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Seeker, Today, 08:58 AM
                              1 response
                              18 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-27-2020, 03:18 PM
                              0 responses
                              21 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-17-2020, 05:11 PM
                              7 responses
                              39 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-09-2020, 09:25 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by rogue06, 10-09-2020, 03:29 PM
                              6 responses
                              52 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Working...
                              X