Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

A whale of a tale

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Moreover, a manatee also has toenails on its flippers indicating that the flippers evolved from legs like we see on terrestrial mammals.
    Or there might be a use for toenails on its flippers.

    Their limbs are also homologous with those of other terrestrial mammals including one bone in the upper limb, two in the lower part, a cluster of bones comprising a wrist and five digits.
    Or you could say there is common design.

    Much like many whales, modern manatees don't have hindlimbs (although your source shows that their early ancestors did) but they still have tiny, atrophied, rudimentary pelvis. And these pelvis vestigial hip sockets for non-existent femurs.
    Right, they lost their hindlimbs, like blind cave fish lost their eyes.

    More evidence that modern manatees evolved from terrestrial ancestors to go along with the fossil record showing that the oldest ancestors (such as, say, Potamosiren) had full-sized hindlimbs ...
    But Potamosiren was probably aquatic?

    Blessings,
    Lee








    [/QUOTE]

    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      No, they haven't, for example, carbohydrate synthesis is difficult to imagine happening in a pool. And how were the 20 amino acids we need generated?
      Yes, they have your spouting ID false science. It did not happen in a pool what foolish response. What a humorous response.


      And the information in the RNA molecule, how is that generated?

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Many viable ways have been demonstrated including using iron compounds as a catalyst.

      I said there are still unknowns, but nonetheless research has answered many of the questions. You have offered absolutely no legitimate science in response.

      The problem is the ID has not produced any research based on 'positive objective verifiable evidence' that would support an ID hypothesis. The history of all these threads that you have littered Tweb, have clearly demonstrated the lack of a scientific basis for your arguments, nor those of the ID proponents.

      You need to get a decent education in the related science, and stop making a fool of yourself like in the laughable thread on Tree Galls.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
        It is a general paper - generally wrong. As demonstrated once again by the paper you apparently now like.
        The result was two mutations in 200,000,000 years for humans in the new paper, still very improbable that you would get even two mutations fixed in a population of whales.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          The result was two mutations in 200,000,000 years for humans in the new paper, still very improbable that you would get even two mutations fixed in a population of whales.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          As usual you earn the ridicule and disdain from The Lurch. I hope he has a good laugh.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            No, they haven't, for example, carbohydrate synthesis is difficult to imagine happening in a pool. And how were the 20 amino acids we need generated?
            The problem of homochirility has been demonstrated as how it can possibly come about naturally. This is an old warn topic. I presented several peer reviewed article on this research, and you chose to ignore them.

            Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29752951/


            J Theor Biol
            . 2018 Aug 14;451:117-121.
            doi: 10.1016/j.jtbi.2018.05.009. Epub 2018 May 9.The start of the Abiogenesis: Preservation of homochirality in proteins as a necessary and sufficient condition for the establishment of the metabolism

            Sřren Toxvaerd1

            Abstract


            Biosystems contain an almost infinite amount of vital important details, which together ensure their life. There are, however, some common structures and reactions in the systems: the homochirality of carbohydrates and proteins, the metabolism and the genetics. The Abiogenesis, or the origin of life, is probably not a result of a series of single events, but rather the result of a gradual process with increasing complexity of molecules and chemical reactions, and the prebiotic synthesis of molecules might not have left a trace of the establishment of structures and reactions at the beginning of the evolution. But alternatively, one might be able to determine some order in the formation of the chemical denominators in the Abiogenesis. Here we review experimental results and present a model of the start of the Abionenesis, where the spontaneous formation of homochirality in proteins is the precondition for the establishment of homochirality of carbohydrates and for the metabolism at the start of the Abiogenesis.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Happy Ground Hog Day again, again and again . . .
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-26-2020, 09:07 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              No, they haven't, for example, carbohydrate synthesis is difficult to imagine happening in a pool.
              I thought I would add this for your information.

              Similar articlesThere are more references I can provide.


              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Or there might be a use for toenails on its flippers.


                Or you could say there is common design.


                Right, they lost their hindlimbs, like blind cave fish lost their eyes.


                But Potamosiren was probably aquatic?

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Why would someone keep making do with parts, shoehorning them into various functions, rather than simply creating something better designed for the function? Looks more like common origin than common design.

                And from your source

                Environments: marine (1 collection), fluvial (1), marginal marine (1), delta front (1)


                which pretty much indicates semi-aquatic like many mammals still around today from beavers to hippos

                The point that you are determined to ignore is that while modern sirenians are fully aquatic their earliest known ancestors like Prorastomus sirenoides and Sobrarbesiren cardieli were predominantly terrestrial. IOW, they evolved from a terrestrial creature that became fully aquatic.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Why would someone keep making do with parts, shoehorning them into various functions, rather than simply creating something better designed for the function? Looks more like common origin than common design.
                  Well, if it's a good design, it bears reusing.

                  The point that you are determined to ignore is that while modern sirenians are fully aquatic their earliest known ancestors like Prorastomus sirenoides and Sobrarbesiren cardieli were predominantly terrestrial. IOW, they evolved from a terrestrial creature that became fully aquatic.
                  And if the loss of the hind limbs is the main change, I don't see that as a problem for evolution.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    I thought I would add this for your information.

                    Similar articlesThere are more references I can provide.

                    So how do these show carbohydrate synthesis? Arguing by link is frowned upon here.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      So how do these show carbohydrate synthesis? Arguing by link is frowned upon here.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      I already posted the main reference, a good article that reviews and goes into these references if you ever cared to read them, and this all Ground Hog Day reruns of other threads. Many of these and more were posted in the past and you refused to acknowledge them nor likely even understood them. The problem is the same with the phony scientists of the Discovery Institute. All this research is availablee to them and more and they have failed to acknowledge them. They do real peer reviewed research on the subject.

                      It is ethical to include the supporting bibliography for a reference made, but no help for the scientifically illiterate.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        I already posted the main reference, a good article that reviews and goes into these references if you ever cared to read them...
                        Which reference, and what does it say about generation of carbohydrates?

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Which reference, and what does it say about generation of carbohydrates?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          I previously posted the first one here. I do not spoon feed the intentionally scientifically illiterate. This already has been covered at least several times in previous threads,
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            The result was two mutations in 200,000,000 years for humans in the new paper, still very improbable that you would get even two mutations fixed in a population of whales.
                            Again, no. It's two specific types of mutations in a single transcription factor binding site. It's a situation of limited relevance to speciation. Once again read the !@#%%@ing paper. Or, since that's apparently too difficult for you, read what i say to you.

                            Repeating something that's false does not make for an argument. It just makes you look stupid and dishonest.


                            Separately, you're refusing to deal with the fact that you favor both this paper and Behe and Snoke, when the former contradicts the latter. That also makes you look stupid.


                            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              So how do these show carbohydrate synthesis? Arguing by link is frowned upon here.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Since in the history of Tweb threads on abiogenesis and homochirality you avoided and likely did not read the references let's time warp to 2020:

                              Source: https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.03532


                              A testable hypothesis on the possible role of electron spin in the origin of bio-homochirality

                              Wei Wang

                              The emergence of biomolecular homochirality is a critical open question in the field of origins of life. In order to seek out an answer to this unsettled issue, a number of mechanisms have been offered over time, but it still remains a great challenge to date. In this paper, based on the hydrothermal vent theory for the origins of life, I tentatively put forward a new hypothesis that the prebiotic emergence of the uniform chirality of biomolecules might have been specifically determined by the spin state of electrons during their prebiotic syntheses on the surfaces of greigite, a mineral which has been frequently argued to have played an important role in the evolutionary context of life. An experimental model to test the hypothesis has also been proposed. Taken into consideration the possible widespread existence of greigite in submarine hydrothermal vent systems which have been frequently argued as a potential cradle for the origins of life, the suggested model, if could be experimentally demonstrated, may be suggestive of where and how life originated on early Earth.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              .

                              more to follow . . .
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-27-2020, 09:39 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                                Again, no. It's two specific types of mutations in a single transcription factor binding site. It's a situation of limited relevance to speciation.
                                But I'm quoting their Behe and Snoke number, not this other number.

                                Separately, you're refusing to deal with the fact that you favor both this paper and Behe and Snoke, when the former contradicts the latter.
                                No, I'm granting the paper their results, and concluding that even then, the probability of whale evolution is low.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X