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A galling fact

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  • A galling fact

    Source: Evolution News

    But how are we to understand the appearance of entirely new formations that are completely absent from normal host plants? How did the plants achieve potentials for totally new structures [exclusively] serving other beings? Can the principle of selection help us? No, it fails completely — for how can a selection for altruistic potentials arise?

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    Plant galls do not appear to benefit the host plant, rather the insect causing the gall benefits.

    Source: Evolution News

    For the plant, the entire effort involved in the gall formation is of no apparent benefit, it is more of a harm because it requires nutrients, reduces the assimilating leaf area and disrupts the normal course of growth, sometimes even the most valuable parts of the plants: buds and seeds. Consequently, according to Darwin, the plants without galls should have an advantage over those with galls, and so in the course of evolution the gall-free variants among the plants should have been chosen very soon and everywhere as the fittest ones…

    © Copyright Original Source


    A puzzle for evolution, indeed...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  • #2
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Source: Evolution News

    But how are we to understand the appearance of entirely new formations that are completely absent from normal host plants? How did the plants achieve potentials for totally new structures [exclusively] serving other beings? Can the principle of selection help us? No, it fails completely — for how can a selection for altruistic potentials arise?

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    Plant galls do not appear to benefit the host plant, rather the insect causing the gall benefits.

    Source: Evolution News

    For the plant, the entire effort involved in the gall formation is of no apparent benefit, it is more of a harm because it requires nutrients, reduces the assimilating leaf area and disrupts the normal course of growth, sometimes even the most valuable parts of the plants: buds and seeds. Consequently, according to Darwin, the plants without galls should have an advantage over those with galls, and so in the course of evolution the gall-free variants among the plants should have been chosen very soon and everywhere as the fittest ones…

    © Copyright Original Source


    A puzzle for evolution, indeed...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    No the plants are indifferent to the galling. No puzzle at all.

    Still citing trash ID non-science.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      A puzzle for evolution, indeed...
      Only if you're a moron.

      Parasites manipulate their hosts ALL THE TIME. It's an obvious advantage to the parasite, and so can obviously be selected for. Like every other host-parasite interaction, this sets off an arms race, sometimes won by the host, sometimes by the parasite. Which precisely matches the biology that the moron who wrote this finds impossible to understand.

      I cannot fathom the sheer stupidity of the people at Discovery Institute for writing this, or you for sharing it. Your posting is getting increasingly unhinged - have you been unwell? Not sleeping?
      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        A puzzle for evolution, indeed...
        Your source doesn't seem to realize that galls are not hereditary.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall

        I recommend you find a smarter source.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
          Parasites manipulate their hosts ALL THE TIME. It's an obvious advantage to the parasite, and so can obviously be selected for.
          And plants can be selected for producing galls, or not, says the site. So why wouldn't natural selection have eliminated the ability of plants to produce galls?

          Originally posted by Stoic
          Your source doesn't seem to realize that galls are not hereditary.
          I'm not sure what you mean, I didn't find anything about inheriting (or not) the ability of a plant to produce galls.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            And plants can be selected for producing galls, or not, says the site.
            Please provide a quote. I haven't seen it suggested that plants can be selected for not producing galls, much less proved.

            I'm not sure what you mean, I didn't find anything about inheriting (or not) the ability of a plant to produce galls.
            Natural selection only works on heritable features. Galls are caused by parasites.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              And plants can be selected for producing galls, or not, says the site. So why wouldn't natural selection have eliminated the ability of plants to produce galls?
              Because the responses that produce them provide other selective advantages for the plant. The parasites have figured out how to manipulate the plant's own chemical signaling to induce the changes. The plants use that signaling for its own essential functions. It can evolve to use different signals or use the signals differently, but it's not going to happen instantly. And the parasites will be evolving to adapt to any changes by the plants the whole time.

              The end product of that is a mix of susceptible and resistant plant species. Which is exactly what we see.

              This is incredibly, phenomenally basic stuff. Your inability to recognize that suggests that you have a grammar-school-level understanding of biology. On the plus side, you're at least only revealing your ignorance on a pretty small forum. You didn't go ahead and publish it on a site that represents an organization that wants to be taken seriously by scientists.

              The Discovery guys should just shut that site down for doing more harm than good for its cause, unless it considers misleading people like you a good. Which, very possibly, it might.
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                Please provide a quote. I haven't seen it suggested that plants can be selected for not producing galls, much less proved.
                Well, not all plants produce galls, for one. I don't know of a reference, though.

                Natural selection only works on heritable features. Galls are caused by parasites.
                Yes, and the ability to produce galls is heritable, thus the conundrum.

                "If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory for such could not have been produced through natural selection." (Darwin, Origin of Species)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                  The end product of that is a mix of susceptible and resistant plant species. Which is exactly what we see.
                  So why doesn't the resistance take over?

                  "For the plant, the entire effort involved in the gall formation is of no apparent benefit, it is more of a harm because it requires nutrients, reduces the assimilating leaf area and disrupts the normal course of growth, sometimes even the most valuable parts of the plants: buds and seeds. Consequently, according to Darwin, the plants without galls should have an advantage over those with galls, and so in the course of evolution the gall-free variants among the plants should have been chosen very soon and everywhere as the fittest ones…" (Evolution News)

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Well, not all plants produce galls, for one. I don't know of a reference, though.
                    If you mean not all plants of a particular species, I would guess that some of them just don't have parasites yet.

                    If you're talking about plants of different species, then parasites may not have adapted to that species yet.

                    Yes, and the ability to produce galls is heritable, thus the conundrum.
                    Feel free to demonstrate that it's a conundrum.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      So why doesn't the resistance take over?
                      In terms of galling the plants do not benfit nor are harmed they are indifferent to the galling.

                      "For the plant, the entire effort involved in the gall formation is of no apparent benefit, it is more of a harm because it requires nutrients, reduces the assimilating leaf area and disrupts the normal course of growth, sometimes even the most valuable parts of the plants: buds and seeds. Consequently, according to Darwin, the plants without galls should have an advantage over those with galls, and so in the course of evolution the gall-free variants among the plants should have been chosen very soon and everywhere as the fittest ones…" (Evolution News)

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      The galling does not take up significant nutrient to effect the palnts growth. If it did it would be a parasite.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-05-2020, 05:26 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        So why doesn't the resistance take over?
                        Why don't we just resist every virus?

                        Are you really this stupid?
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                          Why don't we just resist every virus?

                          Are you really this stupid?
                          Maybe arm wrestle!
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill
                            "For the plant, the entire effort involved in the gall formation is of no apparent benefit, it is more of a harm because it requires nutrients, reduces the assimilating leaf area and disrupts the normal course of growth, sometimes even the most valuable parts of the plants: buds and seeds. Consequently, according to Darwin, the plants without galls should have an advantage over those with galls, and so in the course of evolution the gall-free variants among the plants should have been chosen very soon and everywhere as the fittest ones…" (Evolution News)
                            The galling does not take up significant nutrient to effect the palnts growth. If it did it would be a parasite.
                            Originally posted by TheLurch
                            Why don't we just resist every virus?
                            It is a parasite, but the plant does not have to produce a gall, it is extra effort on the plant's part, to accommodate the parasite. Which effort the plant need not expend, thus the puzzle.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              It is a parasite, but the plant does not have to produce a gall, it is extra effort on the plant's part, to accommodate the parasite. Which effort the plant need not expend, thus the puzzle.
                              The plant DOES have to produce a gall, because the parasite has manipulated its internal signaling pathways. It's like saying "but you don't have to run a fever if you've got a virus..." You don't have a choice in the matter. Neither does the plant.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment

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