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Imitating biology

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I need a reference for this claim! A sparse fitness landscape does not mean the population will be unfit, it only means the population will tend to stay on a local optimum. Thus the surprising discovery of exquisite designs in nature.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    First there is absolutely no falsifiable hypothesis that 'nature is exquisitly designed' in any other way than naturally by natural processes.

    Sparse populations do not evolve, but diverse populations do.

    You need to take a good college course on 'Population genetics.' Based on good science. The following is a course outline. You can probably take it on line. Pay up and get educated.

    Source: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-biology/chapter/population-genetics/#:~:text=Genetic%20variation%20is%20an%20important,alleles%20already%20in%20the%20population.&text=Genetic%20variation%20is%20advantageous%20to,the%20survival%20of%20the%20population.




    Genetic Variation
    Genetic variation is a measure of the variation that exists in the genetic makeup of individuals within population.

    LEARNING OBJECTIVES
    Assess the ways in which genetic variance affects the evolution of populations

    KEY TAKEAWAYS
    Key Points
    Genetic variation is an important force in evolution as it allows natural selection to increase or decrease frequency of alleles already in the population.

    Genetic variation can be caused by mutation (which can create entirely new alleles in a population), random mating, random fertilization, and recombination between homologous chromosomes during meiosis (which reshuffles alleles within an organism’s offspring).

    Genetic variation is advantageous to a population because it enables some individuals to adapt to the environment while maintaining the survival of the population.
    Key Terms

    genetic diversity: the level of biodiversity, refers to the total number of genetic characteristics in the genetic makeup of a species
    crossing over: the exchange of genetic material between homologous chromosomes that results in recombinant chromosomes
    phenotypic variation: variation (due to underlying heritable genetic variation); a fundamental prerequisite for evolution by natural selection
    genetic variation: variation in alleles of genes that occurs both within and among populations

    Genetic Variation
    Genetic variation is a measure of the genetic differences that exist within a population. The genetic variation of an entire species is often called genetic diversity. Genetic variations are the differences in DNA segments or genes between individuals and each variation of a gene is called an allele.For example, a population with many different alleles at a single chromosome locus has a high amount of genetic variation. Genetic variation is essential for natural selection because natural selection can only increase or decrease frequency of alleles that already exist in the population.

    Genetic variation is caused by:

    mutation

    random mating between organisms

    random fertilization

    crossing over (or recombination) between chromatids of homologous chromosomes during meiosis

    The last three of these factors reshuffle alleles within a population, giving offspring combinations which differ from their parents and from others.

    Evolution and Adaptation to the Environment

    Variation allows some individuals within a population to adapt to the changing environment. Because natural selection acts directly only on phenotypes, more genetic variation within a population usually enables more phenotypic variation. Some new alleles increase an organism’s ability to survive and reproduce, which then ensures the survival of the allele in the population. Other new alleles may be immediately detrimental (such as a malformed oxygen-carrying protein) and organisms carrying these new mutations will die out. Neutral alleles are neither selected for nor against and usually remain in the population. Genetic variation is advantageous because it enables some individuals and, therefore, a population, to survive despite a changing environment.

    Geographic Variation
    Some species display geographic variation as well as variation within a population. Geographic variation, or the distinctions in the genetic makeup of different populations, often occurs when populations are geographically separated by environmental barriers or when they are under selection pressures from a different environment. One example of geographic variation are clines: graded changes in a character down a geographic axis.

    Sources of Genetic Variation

    Gene duplication, mutation, or other processes can produce new genes and alleles and increase genetic variation. New genetic variation can be created within generations in a population, so a population with rapid reproduction rates will probably have high genetic variation. However, existing genes can be arranged in new ways from chromosomal crossing over and recombination in sexual reproduction. Overall, the main sources of genetic variation are the formation of new alleles, the altering of gene number or position, rapid reproduction, and sexual reproduction.

    Genetic Drift

    Genetic drift is the change in allele frequencies of a population due to random chance events, such as natural disasters.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-16-2020, 04:03 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      I need a reference for this claim! A sparse fitness landscape does not mean the population will be unfit, it only means the population will tend to stay on a local optimum. Thus the surprising discovery of exquisite designs in nature.
      Exquisite designs in nature are not that surprising to those with knowledge of evolution. What would be surprising (and need to be explained) is if we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness.

      Of course, one would expect that explanation to be that the fitness landscape has changed recently, or that one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness (i.e. the design is at a local maximum).

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        I need a reference for this claim! A sparse fitness landscape does not mean the population will be unfit, it only means the population will tend to stay on a local optimum. Thus the surprising discovery of exquisite designs in nature.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        The exquisite nature is not surprizing. It follows Natural Laws, Natural geometry, and the predctable natural processes.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          Exquisite designs in nature are not that surprising to those with knowledge of evolution. What would be surprising (and need to be explained) is if we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness.

          Of course, one would expect that explanation to be that the fitness landscape has changed recently, or that one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness (i.e. the design is at a local maximum).
          How does the second paragraph justify the first? Why ''we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness'' is solved by ''the fitness landscape has changed recently, or that one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness (i.e. the design is at a local maximum)''?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Seeker View Post
            How does the second paragraph justify the first? Why ''we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness'' is solved by ''the fitness landscape has changed recently, or that one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness (i.e. the design is at a local maximum)''?
            If the fitness landscape has changed recently, then the design might not be optimal because nature hasn't had time to get there yet.

            If one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness, then we were mistaken in thinking that "we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Seeker View Post
              How does the second paragraph justify the first? Why ''we could come up with an improvement on the design that nature could have done with small changes that each lead to an improvement in fitness'' is solved by ''the fitness landscape has changed recently, or that one or more of the small steps leads to less fitness (i.e. the design is at a local maximum)''?
              If the fitness landscape has changed, then what was formerly a maximum may no longer be a maximum, the maximum might be just a small change away. The human fitness landscape has changed recently with the introduction of Covid-19. A small change that increases resistance to Covid-19 is now beneficial, where it would not have been beneficial a year ago.

              If the local peak is separated from the next peak by too deep a valley then evolution will not be able to cross that valley. If gaining resistance to Covid-19 meant a 15% death rate from the common cold in order to make the transition to Covid-19 resistance, then that change will not happen.

              Comment


              • #37
                Ok, I think I understand now.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  I need a reference for this claim! A sparse fitness landscape does not mean the population will be unfit, it only means the population will tend to stay on a local optimum.
                  Sorry, big research problem kept me away from distractions like this for a while. Not surprised to come back to see Lee making false statements.

                  The tendency of a system to get stuck in a local maximum depends on a large variety of factors: the temporal stability of the landscape, the ease of motion along the landscape, the size of the jumps that are made by changes, the size of the optima, etc. Unless you have quantifiable values for all of these, you have absolutely no idea of whether the behavior of any system should surprise you.

                  In other words, if you're surprised, it's not for scientific reasons.
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Source: Evolution News

                    Speaking of sponges, they have a fine pore structure that could inspire greener storage in hydrogen-powered cars. A researcher at Northwestern University developed a spongy material out of aluminum with so many pores, a gram of it has the surface area of a football field. “Like a bath SPONGE, the product is able to hold and release large quantities of the gas at lower pressure and cost.” (BBC News)

                    Engineers at the University of Pennsylvania envision many useful applications with “uniform-sized, (sub)micrometer-sized particles with diverse surface patterns” that “will enable applications including drug delivery, tissue engineering, energy storage, and displays.” They found a perfect biological entity to imitate: POLLEN GRAINS. (PNAS)

                    Robot designers at UC Berkeley are finding out that to climb walls like a GECKO, their creations need toes. With toes that stick in one direction and peel in the opposite direction, geckos can go up, down, and sideways with ease. The design team lit up the toes with glowing markers to watch how they work.

                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    Lots of designs!

                    Source: Evolution News

                    ... these are great designs in nature. Engineers would be scoffing if they could do better. Instead, it is evident that they are still having trouble imitating some of nature’s works even after decades of trying.

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    Designs we try an imitate are not what you would expect if nature is cobbled together with an algorithm that seeks local optimums.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    I wanted to add none of the above in reality imitates biology nor nature. Both nature and biology are subject to natural laws. Any designs by humans are subject to natural laws. We make literally thousands of eyes, including cameras. We even make artifical organs and body parts. So what?!?!?!!

                    In the future we will literally be able to clone exact copies of everything nature.

                    Fortunately nothing is designed in nature because that would really screw things up!
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-24-2020, 06:32 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                      The tendency of a system to get stuck in a local maximum depends on a large variety of factors: the temporal stability of the landscape, the ease of motion along the landscape, the size of the jumps that are made by changes, the size of the optima, etc. Unless you have quantifiable values for all of these, you have absolutely no idea of whether the behavior of any system should surprise you.
                      Yet a sparse landscape will make it likely that evolution will get stuck on a local optimum, regardless of the temporal stability, the ease of motion, etc.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        In the future we will literally be able to clone exact copies of everything nature.
                        But the point is that human designs fall far behind what we see in nature.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Yet a sparse landscape will make it likely that evolution will get stuck on a local optimum, regardless of the temporal stability, the ease of motion, etc.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          The most ridiculous claim considering the vaste fossil and genetic evidence for th history of life. Local optimums? lead to limited genetic diversity and extinction, which is what is observed today in the world. The evidence is clear, evolution takes place in related populations over regions of the earth, such as observed in rain forests today
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-24-2020, 08:49 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Yet a sparse landscape will make it likely that evolution will get stuck on a local optimum, regardless of the temporal stability, the ease of motion, etc.
                            No, it doesn't, and the fact that you think it does means you know so little about what you're talking about that you should be embarrassed to be talking about it.

                            A nearly flat landscape, where there's almost no cost to wandering, is much easier for a system to shift around in than a densely packed system with deeply negative troughs near all the optima. A system where changes make for large shifts in distance make the relative height of the optima irrelevant, since any change is likely to move them off the peak entirely. Etc. Every single factor i mentioned will change the probability of being stuck at a local optimum otherwise i wouldn't have mentioned it.

                            Why is it so hard for you to accept that i know this stuff and you don't? Do you not believe i have a PhD in the biosciences? Or do you think that somehow reading a bunch of people who aren't scientists ranting about science gives you some knowledge that i don't have?
                            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              But the point is that human designs fall far behind what we see in nature.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Not a meaningful point. By the objective verifiable evidence life and the nature of our physiccal existence shows absolutely no falsifiable evidence of being designed.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                                A nearly flat landscape, where there's almost no cost to wandering, is much easier for a system to shift around in than a densely packed system with deeply negative troughs near all the optima. A system where changes make for large shifts in distance make the relative height of the optima irrelevant, since any change is likely to move them off the peak entirely. Etc.
                                I'm going to make sure i clarify this so that even Lee gets it:

                                A nearly flat landscape, where there's no cost to moving out of an optimum, makes the density of optima irrelevant, since most things navigating this landscape will spread out across the surface, rather than remaining in an optimum.

                                A landscape where changes move the system a large distance means that the rare optima in a sparse landscape still get reached.

                                The Etc. still applies.
                                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                                Comment

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