Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The death of another YEC PRATT

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by Esther View Post
    Yes I have been interested to see the two positions young earth, old earth. My understanding is that the young earth best fits a Biblical worldview but I have no zeal to debate this.
    It would be astounding if the Biblical authors wrote outside the cosmology of their contemporary neighboring kingdoms, all of whom saw the earth at the center of a recently created universe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Esther
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Too much evidence from a variety of sources and various scientific disciplines make that position untenable.
    Yes I have been interested to see the two positions young earth, old earth. My understanding is that the young earth best fits a Biblical worldview but I have no zeal to debate this.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Esther View Post
    Maybe the universe is older but I believe the earth is young.
    Too much evidence from a variety of sources and various scientific disciplines make that position untenable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Esther
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Astronomy and Cosmology that continue to offer up evidence that the universe is older by a few magnitude that several thousand years.
    Maybe the universe is older but I believe the earth is young.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    It was proposed that Oumuamua was a Hyrogen (Comet/Asteroid?) sometime back, but since evidence indicates this is not so.
    Source: https://phys.org/news/2020-08-scientists-oumuamua-isnt-molecular-hydrogen.html



    Scientists determine 'Oumuamua isn't made from molecular hydrogen ice after all
    by Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

    The debate over the origins and molecular structure of 'Oumuamua continued today with an announcement in The Astrophysical Journal Letters that despite earlier promising claims, the interstellar object is not made of molecular hydrogen ice after all.

    The earlier study, published by Seligman & Laughlin in 2020—after observations by the Spitzer Space Telescope set tight limits on the outgassing of carbon-based molecules—suggested that if 'Oumuamua were a hydrogen iceberg, then the pure hydrogen gas that gives it its rocket-like push would have escaped detection. But scientists at the Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian (CfA) and the Korea Astronomy and Space Science Institute (KASI) were curious whether a hydrogen-based object could actually have made the journey from interstellar space to our solar system.

    "The proposal by Seligman and Laughlin appeared promising because it might explain the extreme elongated shape of 'Oumuamua as well as the non-gravitational acceleration. However, their theory is based on an assumption that H2 ice could form in dense molecular clouds. If this is true, H2 ice objects could be abundant in the universe, and thus would have far-reaching implications. H2 ice was also proposed to explain dark matter, a mystery of modern astrophysics," said Dr. Thiem Hoang, senior researcher in the theoretical astrophysics group at KASI and lead author on the paper. "We wanted to not only test the assumptions in the theory but also the dark matter proposition." Dr. Avi Loeb, Frank B. Baird Professor of Science at Harvard and co-author on the paper, added, "We were suspicious that hydrogen icebergs could not survive the journey—which is likely to take hundreds of millions of years—because they evaporate too quickly, and as to whether they could form in molecular clouds."

    Traveling at a blistering speed of 196,000mph in 2017, 'Oumuamua was first classified as an asteroid, and when it later sped up, was found to have properties more akin to comets. But the 0.2km radius interstellar object didn't fit that category, either, and its point of origin has remained a mystery. Researchers focused on the giant molecular cloud (GMC) W51—one of the closest GMCs to Earth at just 17,000 light years away—as a potential point of origin for 'Oumuamua, but hypothesize that it simply could not have made the journey intact. "The most likely place to make hydrogen icebergs is in the densest environments of the interstellar medium. These are giant molecular clouds," said Loeb, confirming that these environments are both too far away and are not conducive to the development of hydrogen icebergs.

    An accepted astrophysical origin for solid objects is growth by sticky collisions of dust, but in the case of a hydrogen iceberg, this theory could not hold together. "An accepted route to form a km-sized object is first to form grains of micron-size, then such grains grow by sticky collisions," said Hoang. "However, in regions with high gas density, collisional heating by gas collisions can rapidly sublimate the hydrogen mantle on the grains, preventing them from growing further."

    © Copyright Original Source

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Well, the prediction had been that we'd find exosolar comets. But the first exosolar object we found, 'Oumuamua, was not a comet. And wasn't a typical asteroid either - it was truly bizarre, and people are still arguing over how to interpret it. So, in many ways, it's only now that predictions are really starting to be confirmed.
    In the past I remember only that in was predicted that our solar system would be visited by extrastellar 'objects.' I do not recall whether it was specifically in reference t comments, but I could see that the most likely visitors would be comets. Considering it is known that both asteroids and comets are known exist it is open to the possibility that interstellar objects could be either.

    Fun 'Oumumua fact: i once fed an interview that mentioned it into automated transcription software, and it popped out as "Oh momma"
    As far as 'Oumumua' is concerned, the orbit is extremely hyperbolic, and does not appear to be related to any other star, and is likely a wandering 'loner' probably a remnant of long gone solar system.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I don't underestimate the importance of these discoveries, because they begin a new age in astronomy concerning extrastellar objects. Based on the observations so far there is nothing really mysterious about these objects. They were predicted, and likely there will be more since the technology is increasing the ability to find them.
    Well, the prediction had been that we'd find exosolar comets. But the first exosolar object we found, 'Oumuamua, was not a comet. And wasn't a typical asteroid either - it was truly bizarre, and people are still arguing over how to interpret it. So, in many ways, it's only now that predictions are really starting to be confirmed.

    Fun 'Oumumua fact: i once fed an interview that mentioned it into automated transcription software, and it popped out as "Oh momma"

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Don't underestimate the importance shuny. It gives us a chance to investigate for the first time objects that are provably from outside our solar system that are not stars. The differences or similarities are very informative and will allow some theories to be confirmed and others denied. It is a small sample to be sure, but it is fairly significant as astronomical events go.

    Jim
    I don't underestimate the importance of these discoveries, because they begin a new age in astronomy concerning extrastellar objects. Based on the observations so far there is nothing really mysterious about these objects. They were predicted, and likely there will be more since the technology is increasing the ability to find them.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I do not consider the discovery of the two interstellar objects as earth shaking or mysterious as many claim. They have been predicted to exist and it is in recent years that we have the technology to discover them and track them. The first is an interstellar asteroid of unknown origin and is likely a wandering remnant of a diseased solar system. The second is a comet from another star and can likely be traced to the star of origin. There will likely be more discovered.

    Source: https://physicsworld.com/a/interstellar-comet-2i-borisov-comes-from-a-binary-star-13-light-years-away-say-astronomers/



    Interstellar comet 2I/Borisov comes from a binary star 13 light-years away, say astronomers

    Coming into focus: 2I/Borisov appears as a blur of light in this telescope image, but astronomers are learning more about interstellar object every day. (Courtesy: IAU)
    Comet 2I/Borisov, recently confirmed as a visitor from interstellar space, could have its origin in a star system 13 light-years away, say astronomers. Extrapolating from the relatively scant orbital parameters determined so far, and accounting for the gravitational effects of hundreds of nearby stars, astronomers in Poland have projected the comet’s path back in time. They found that, about one million years ago, 2I/Borisov and the double star system Kruger 60 passed within a few light-years of each other at a very low relative velocity. Observations of the comet as it travels through the solar system will improve our understanding of its orbit and allow the astronomers to test their hypothesis more thoroughly.


    Not counting cosmic dust grains found on Earth and captured in space, 2I/Borisov is only the second interstellar object that we know of. The first was the pencil-shaped body named ‘Oumuamua, which was spotted shooting through the solar system in September 2017. ‘Oumuamua caused great excitement when it was first discovered and some astronomers even speculated that it could be some sort of alien spacecraft. While that hypothesis has been discounted, much about this object remains a mystery. It was already heading away from the Sun when it was first spotted, so there was little time for detailed observations. Although some outgassing was inferred from unexpected changes in its orbit, it stubbornly refused to emit anything that could be measured directly.

    This time things are different with 2I/Borisov. Discovered at the end of August 2019, 2I/Borisov is still on the inbound leg of its trajectory, and it will not reach perihelion (its closest approach to the Sun) until early December. This means that astronomers will have a year or so in which to make observations, and some of these will be measurements of the comet’s orbit with a view to determining its origin. In a preprint posted on the arXiv preprint server, Piotr Dybczyński, and colleagues Adam Mickiewicz University and the Space Research Center of the Polish Academy of Sciences report the first such study.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Don't underestimate the importance shuny. It gives us a chance to investigate for the first time objects that are provably from outside our solar system that are not stars. The differences or similarities are very informative and will allow some theories to be confirmed and others denied. It is a small sample to be sure, but it is fairly significant as astronomical events go.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And tend to be more than happy to let someone take a look.
    I do not consider the discovery of the two interstellar objects as earth shaking or mysterious as many claim. They have been predicted to exist and it is in recent years that we have the technology to discover them and track them. The first is an interstellar asteroid of unknown origin and is likely a wandering remnant of a diseased solar system. The second is a comet from another star and can likely be traced to the star of origin. There will likely be more discovered.

    Source: https://physicsworld.com/a/interstellar-comet-2i-borisov-comes-from-a-binary-star-13-light-years-away-say-astronomers/



    Interstellar comet 2I/Borisov comes from a binary star 13 light-years away, say astronomers

    Coming into focus: 2I/Borisov appears as a blur of light in this telescope image, but astronomers are learning more about interstellar object every day. (Courtesy: IAU)
    Comet 2I/Borisov, recently confirmed as a visitor from interstellar space, could have its origin in a star system 13 light-years away, say astronomers. Extrapolating from the relatively scant orbital parameters determined so far, and accounting for the gravitational effects of hundreds of nearby stars, astronomers in Poland have projected the comet’s path back in time. They found that, about one million years ago, 2I/Borisov and the double star system Kruger 60 passed within a few light-years of each other at a very low relative velocity. Observations of the comet as it travels through the solar system will improve our understanding of its orbit and allow the astronomers to test their hypothesis more thoroughly.


    Not counting cosmic dust grains found on Earth and captured in space, 2I/Borisov is only the second interstellar object that we know of. The first was the pencil-shaped body named ‘Oumuamua, which was spotted shooting through the solar system in September 2017. ‘Oumuamua caused great excitement when it was first discovered and some astronomers even speculated that it could be some sort of alien spacecraft. While that hypothesis has been discounted, much about this object remains a mystery. It was already heading away from the Sun when it was first spotted, so there was little time for detailed observations. Although some outgassing was inferred from unexpected changes in its orbit, it stubbornly refused to emit anything that could be measured directly.

    This time things are different with 2I/Borisov. Discovered at the end of August 2019, 2I/Borisov is still on the inbound leg of its trajectory, and it will not reach perihelion (its closest approach to the Sun) until early December. This means that astronomers will have a year or so in which to make observations, and some of these will be measurements of the comet’s orbit with a view to determining its origin. In a preprint posted on the arXiv preprint server, Piotr Dybczyński, and colleagues Adam Mickiewicz University and the Space Research Center of the Polish Academy of Sciences report the first such study.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-22-2019, 02:46 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Yep - peak magnitude looks to be around 15, which puts it out of reach for anything smaller than 10 inches aperture (limiting magnitude around 15.2). And even then, you'd need pristine dark skies and very good eyes to glimpse it.

    But in these times 14(15.7 lm) to 17 (16lm) inch dobs are not uncommon, so you might just look for the local astronomy club to have a viewing. Most such clubs will have at least a few members with scopes big enough to catch it.

    Jim
    And tend to be more than happy to let someone take a look.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    My understanding is that you'd need a very high end amateur telescope to see it. But if you're near any observatories, there's a chance they'll do viewings - check your calendar. I'm in NYC, and there's actually an observatory on top of the physics building at Columbia (far IR, but still...), so there might be some place closer than you think.
    Yep - peak magnitude looks to be around 15, which puts it out of reach for anything smaller than 10 inches aperture (limiting magnitude around 15.2). And even then, you'd need pristine dark skies and very good eyes to glimpse it.

    But in these times 14(15.7 lm) to 17 (16lm) inch dobs are not uncommon, so you might just look for the local astronomy club to have a viewing. Most such clubs will have at least a few members with scopes big enough to catch it.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    Wiki: 2I/Borisov
    2I/Borisov, originally designated C/2019 Q4 (Borisov),[8][12] is the first observed interstellar comet[13][6] and the second observed interstellar interloper after ʻOumuamua.[14][15] 2I/Borisov has a heliocentric orbital eccentricity of 3.3 and is not bound to the Sun.[3] The comet will pass through the ecliptic of the Solar System in December 2019, with the closest approach to the Sun at just under 2 au on 8 December 2019.

    So looks like it won't be visible without a telescope.
    My understanding is that you'd need a very high end amateur telescope to see it. But if you're near any observatories, there's a chance they'll do viewings - check your calendar. I'm in NYC, and there's actually an observatory on top of the physics building at Columbia (far IR, but still...), so there might be some place closer than you think.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    It was one picture, so its 'picture' not 'pictures'
    This is not the first time this ridiculous picture has been overused.

    A literalistic interpretation is pretty much just taking the seven days, as seven days. That's what a literalistic interpretation means, going by the word. So when it says one day, its to be interpreted as one day. All that's needed to refute the Church Fathers being literalistic on the day-age issue, is just to point out the diversity of opinion. Rogue06 has done this, and you've failed to answer him.

    That you're now shifting the goal post by having it encompance their opinions on other subjects of the Bible is irrelevant.
    No shifting the goal posts at all. The interpretation of a day as a day or a thousand years has a basis in a literal interpretation of Genesis with Biblical references. ALL believed in a literal Biblical world flood.


    You use a period between St and the name of the Saint. So it would be 'St. Augustine'
    A true anal grammarian par excellence.

    What's your point Shuny? I have no problem with the Church Fathers, interpreting the Bible according to the best understanding of nature they had at their time.
    The point is that the fundamentalist literal interpretations of Genesis are grounded in the beliefs of the Church Fathers, and the consistent history of Christianity. The literal interpretation view is not just a recent manifestation of of Protestant Christianity. It is consistent in the history of Christianity.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by shunyadragon, Yesterday, 03:18 PM
0 responses
17 views
0 likes
Last Post shunyadragon  
Started by shunyadragon, 10-17-2020, 05:11 PM
7 responses
37 views
0 likes
Last Post rogue06
by rogue06
 
Started by shunyadragon, 10-09-2020, 09:25 PM
0 responses
22 views
0 likes
Last Post shunyadragon  
Started by rogue06, 10-09-2020, 03:29 PM
6 responses
52 views
1 like
Last Post shunyadragon  
Started by shunyadragon, 10-07-2020, 12:11 PM
0 responses
10 views
0 likes
Last Post shunyadragon  
Working...
X