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Tesla million mile battery

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  • Tesla million mile battery

    A few months back Elon Musk anounced that they had a technology that would allow a battery to last 1,000,000 miles. A study was released of that technology that shows that indeed, they have a battery technology that will only lose 10% of its capacity in 1,000,000 miles. That is quite amazing. The interesting thing is that they published sufficient details to allow others to apply the technologies to their own battery production. This has generated some speculation Tesla already has something even better.

    1,000,000 miles on a battery does a couple of things.

    1) it provides a market for used batteries. It they last nearly forever, just put them in another car if he first one dies
    2) it means fewer batteries need to be produced because replacements are not as likely to be needed.
    3) better for the environment - less used up batteries to dispose of.


    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...e-battery-tech


    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

  • #2
    Interesting indeed, now we just need a million-mile car to go with it. Though electric vehicles are substantially simpler than their gasoline-powered counterparts, so maybe a million-mile car would be possible?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Interesting indeed, now we just need a million-mile car to go with it. Though electric vehicles are substantially simpler than their gasoline-powered counterparts, so maybe a million-mile car would be possible?

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Asking a lot from a poor motor, aren't you?
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Asking a lot from a poor motor, aren't you?
        Well, maybe not!

        Source: Tesla forum

        Elon has stated that in recent times, that the drive units as a whole would last 1,000,000 miles.

        Source

        © Copyright Original Source



        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          A study was released of that technology that shows that indeed, they have a battery technology that will only lose 10% of its capacity in 1,000,000 miles. That is quite amazing. The interesting thing is that they published sufficient details to allow others to apply the technologies to their own battery production.
          A Wide Range of Testing Results on an Excellent Lithium-Ion Cell Chemistry to be used as Benchmarks for New Battery Technologies

          Open Access, woot!

          And whoa ... stumped already:
          Several different electrolytes are considered in this Li Ni_0.5 Mn_0.3 Co_0.2 O2/graphite chemistry, including those that can promote fast charging.

          Umm, any chemistry buffs out there who can explain fractional stoichiometries to me?

          Comment


          • #6
            If Tesla had been able to ramp up production to meet demand, I'd be driving one now, instead of this Camry hybrid (~45 mpg, personal calculations, mostly highway use in South Florida). I'm at an age now where I've got no reason not to trade-in for new every three years now ... not planning to live forever, ya know ... and Toyota's are famous for holding their value, so that's where I'm at, two years in on this one, looking around.

            Here's the thing ... my new chair picked up a used electric Beamer minivan last year for chump change, which sounded awesome until I asked myself why it was selling so cheap. That says pretty clearly it can't hold any resale value, and it's got to be because the batteries are improving so fast they're obsolete before the next model hits the showroom.

            There's a huge difference between 500k on a battery and 1MM.

            This battery news says wait some more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
              A Wide Range of Testing Results on an Excellent Lithium-Ion Cell Chemistry to be used as Benchmarks for New Battery Technologies

              Open Access, woot!

              And whoa ... stumped already:
              Several different electrolytes are considered in this Li Ni_0.5 Mn_0.3 Co_0.2 O2/graphite chemistry, including those that can promote fast charging.

              Umm, any chemistry buffs out there who can explain fractional stoichiometries to me?
              Just multiply all those fractions by 10 and you'll be set. Just means a complicated crystal structure where some of the atoms are only presence once in a single repeat unit, or a case where multiple forms of a chemical can co-exist under certain conditions.
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                Just multiply all those fractions by 10 and you'll be set. Just means a complicated crystal structure where some of the atoms are only presence once in a single repeat unit, or a case where multiple forms of a chemical can co-exist under certain conditions.
                Thanks, but ... after thinking it over, this still doesn't seem clear. The outer shells of the three fractional constituents, Ni, Mn, and Co, are identical. This means to me they'll have the same bonds, and in the context of a single crystal, as described in the paper, suggests a lattice with equivalent fundamental units ...

                Li Ni O2
                Li Mn O2
                Li Co O2

                ... in the given proportions: 50 percent, 30 percent, 20 percent.

                But I'm not a chemist, and I guess that would yield the "times 10" stoichiometry, and I guess that would coincide with "multiple forms" of the same chemical, but I guess I'm just not comfortable with all the guessing.

                Did you look at the paper?

                Those are some incredibly impressive results, especially so if they're intended for benchmarking.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                  Thanks, but ... after thinking it over, this still doesn't seem clear. The outer shells of the three fractional constituents, Ni, Mn, and Co, are identical. This means to me they'll have the same bonds, and in the context of a single crystal, as described in the paper, suggests a lattice with equivalent fundamental units ...
                  These are transition metal elements; the outer shell is not always the only one that matters. For example, the most common form of manganese in chemicals is Mn+4. But it can also exist in the +2 state.

                  Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                  Did you look at the paper?

                  Those are some incredibly impressive results, especially so if they're intended for benchmarking.
                  I had looked at the abstract when the paper was first released, and looked in a bit more detail in response to this. This is a pouch cell, which is very convenient for testing, but doesn't represent something that has all the components of a commercial battery, and may not perform as well when the same chemistry is placed in a form that can be manufactured at scale. I'm also somewhat concerned by the statement "Details of the cells used in this work will be given later, as will a full set of performance data."

                  We also run up against the limits of my knowledge in the description of the charge/discharge experiments, as i can't read the experimental description and understand what % charge points they cycled between. Lithium batteries tend to have much higher durability when they aren't charged or discharged fully (so, cycling between, say, 20% and 90% will give much better results than cycling between 5% and 95%).

                  So, in sum: potentially quite exciting, but i'd need to talk to someone who knows batteries better than i do before i'd get excited about it.
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Well, maybe not!

                    Source: Tesla forum

                    Elon has stated that in recent times, that the drive units as a whole would last 1,000,000 miles.

                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    This reminds me of how not all that long ago aircraft manufacturers were insisting that planes could keep flying indefinitely as long as they received proper maintenance. Then you had a couple high profile crashes resulting from things like metal fatigue.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      A few months back Elon Musk anounced that they had a technology that would allow a battery to last 1,000,000 miles. A study was released of that technology that shows that indeed, they have a battery technology that will only lose 10% of its capacity in 1,000,000 miles. That is quite amazing. The interesting thing is that they published sufficient details to allow others to apply the technologies to their own battery production. This has generated some speculation Tesla already has something even better.

                      1,000,000 miles on a battery does a couple of things.

                      1) it provides a market for used batteries. It they last nearly forever, just put them in another car if he first one dies
                      2) it means fewer batteries need to be produced because replacements are not as likely to be needed.
                      3) better for the environment - less used up batteries to dispose of.


                      https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...e-battery-tech


                      Jim
                      As they say timing is everything. About the time this story was released police in Fremont California had to abandon a chase because their tesla battery was running out of power.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                        These are transition metal elements; the outer shell is not always the only one that matters. For example, the most common form of manganese in chemicals is Mn+4. But it can also exist in the +2 state.
                        I worked with a gal in a visualization lab doing research on separating Fe+2 and Fe+3. Pretty pictures, but I never grokked the chemistry. Pretty pictures that needed a whole lot of processing. We'd both scored some Large Scale Computing grant money facilitated by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications.


                        I had looked at the abstract when the paper was first released, and looked in a bit more detail in response to this. This is a pouch cell, which is very convenient for testing, but doesn't represent something that has all the components of a commercial battery, and may not perform as well when the same chemistry is placed in a form that can be manufactured at scale. I'm also somewhat concerned by the statement "Details of the cells used in this work will be given later, as will a full set of performance data."

                        We also run up against the limits of my knowledge in the description of the charge/discharge experiments, as i can't read the experimental description and understand what % charge points they cycled between. Lithium batteries tend to have much higher durability when they aren't charged or discharged fully (so, cycling between, say, 20% and 90% will give much better results than cycling between 5% and 95%).

                        So, in sum: potentially quite exciting, but i'd need to talk to someone who knows batteries better than i do before i'd get excited about it.
                        Keep reading! The details you're asking for are in the legend to Figure 1:
                        The data from this work for 100% DOD cycling was collected to an upper cutoff potential of 4.3 V. The data from Ecker et al., used 4.2 V as 100% state of charge. The purple and green data (this work) should be compared to the black data (Ecker et al.). Data for restricted range cycling (i.e. 25 - 75% SOC and 40 -60% SOC) for the cells in this work is not available but is expected to be far better than the data shown for 0 – 100% DOD cycling by analogy with the cells tested by Ecker et al.

                        Figure 1.jpg

                        The closest comparison is between the NMC532 from this paper cycling 0% to 100% (at 40ºC) and Ecker cycling 40% to 60% (at 35ºC). I don't understand the 1C and C/3 designations, but the fact they were doing full cycles at a higher temp, and beating partial cycles at a lower temp means they're beating the Ecker cells with both hands tied behind their back.
                        Data for restricted range cycling (i.e. 25 - 75% SOC and 40 -60% SOC) for the cells in this work ... is expected to be far better ... by analogy.

                        The focus is toward commercial EVs, cabs and long-haul trucks that will come in needing full cycles, and personal vehicles plugged in to a smart grid providing base power at home.

                        Folks who've been following my personal adventures know I'm within a year of going (mostly) off grid on land in the Everglades, hence my deep interest here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          As they say timing is everything. About the time this story was released police in Fremont California had to abandon a chase because their tesla battery was running out of power.
                          Nobody leaves links anymore.

                          Cops Abandon High-Speed Chase When Their Tesla Battery Runs Down
                          By Bill Howard on September 27, 2019 at 2:18 pm
                          Don’t feed the sheriff’s horse tonight and Blaze won’t much feel like chasing cattle rustlers tomorrow. Don’t gas up the Ford Interceptor and you not make it much farther than Dunkin in the morning. Now the cops are learning: If you don’t charge your Tesla police car, the next shift won’t mount a very long high-speed pursuit. It happened this month in Fremont, California. The police department’s Tesla ran low on juice and the chase was called off after about eight miles. The Fremont PD said it was for reasons of public safety.

                          Public safety, yeah, that's what we'll call it.
                          The Fremont PD did note the car somehow hadn’t been plugged in to charge at the end of its previous shift.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            This reminds me of how not all that long ago aircraft manufacturers were insisting that planes could keep flying indefinitely as long as they received proper maintenance. Then you had a couple high profile crashes resulting from things like metal fatigue.
                            Though Tesla has validated their drive train for a million miles! Which is also not indefinitely...

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                              Keep reading! The details you're asking for are in the legend to Figure 1.
                              Right, but unless i've read that wrong, the percentages are defined relative to an output voltage (the voltage will change as the battery nears empty or full). What i don't understand is how to relate those voltage changes to how much additional charge can still be extracted from the battery at that point.

                              But now that you highlight that graph, the red vs. blue lines does really drive home the relationship between battery performance and how much you stray from intermediate discharge states.

                              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                              I don't understand the 1C and C/3 designations, but the fact they were doing full cycles at a higher temp, and beating partial cycles at a lower temp means they're beating the Ecker cells with both hands tied behind their back.
                              C is simply a measure of how fast you charge it. C/3 is a pretty slow charge; 1C is what would be considered a normal charging rate for a battery of this size. Batteries tend to perform better if you charge them more slowly, as the ions have more time to integrate into the electrode in an orderly way.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment

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