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Ethics And Evolutionary Strategy

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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Not even you are dumb enough not to know that I neither said nor implied no any such thing.
    Roy
    Really Roy? So do you assign moral blame to the Europeans?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Then what Europeans did was good. If they say it was, and if there are no right answers, then like in the math example, it is an exercise in futility - useless moral jabbering.
      Who knows what they thought at the time. Their moral code is superseded by ours. Ours, no doubt, will be superseded by something else. I don’t see the problem. The Bible itself represents a superseded moral code. If there was an absolute, unchanging standard, where would you find it?
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        That is not the point, I'm not saying that all atheists are completely immoral and smell bad (though we are all sinners). Do you agree that what Europeans did and what the northern chimpanzees are both examples of evolutionary events? If not, what is the difference?
        They are events.

        In both cases they improved the reproductive fitness of one group at the expense of another group. So they were good for one group but bad for another group. In the case of the humans, the Europeans did not need to do it the way they did. They had a moral choice and their choice was very bad. Maybe the chimps could have cooperated and it would have been a win, win situation.

        That this happened was perhaps evolutionary bad in that the less fit group happened to win - in both cases.

        Originally posted by seer
        The second problem is this, the atheist has no independent ethical standard to appeal to.
        So seer, was the outcome God's will in both cases?

        Originally posted by seer
        So you offer answers like - well what the Europeans did was good for them, but not good for the American Indian. As a moral theory this is completely useless or contradictory.
        You did ask whether or not it was good or bad. You got your answer so don't be silly.


        Originally posted by seer
        The only objective standard you can appeal to -
        So was the outcome, God's will, in both cases?

        Originally posted by seer
        - is was this strategy successful in the evolutionary sense - yes it was for Europeans, as with northern chimpanzees - and in the end that is all that counts - their genes get passed in, the genes from the losing groups don't, or are severely curtailed.
        Well yes. If rain falls on the drought stricken, that's all that matters for the suffering. It's good. But if it does not, then it's bad.

        "Good" and "bad" are values we assign to the process of rainfall and evolution. As processes, they are neutral in how they feel about it. I'll wager that nether losing group thought it good, whether or not they accepted evolution. Many in the winning groups may have thought it good. In the case of humans though, not every one did. I don't think it was good.

        I'll wager that you think it good in both cases, right seer, if you thought that it was God's will. Do you think it was God's will in both cases? If not, then how do you know?


        Originally posted by seer
        If God decides to remove an individual or individuals from this earth then it is a completely just act.
        So if God wrote the Bible up as a joke book and by believing it, all Christians go to hell and all non believers to heaven, then that is a completely just act? It's an act that is as just as all Christians going to heaven and all non believers to hell?

        In such a universe of absolutes, you have no hope do you seer. Whatever God does to you, is always just. It's as good casting you in hell for believing as it is taking you into heaven. So why is one outcome any more likely than the other?
        Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 03:15 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rwatts View Post
          They are events.

          In both cases they improved the reproductive fitness of one group at the expense of another group. So they were good for one group but bad for another group. In the case of the humans, the Europeans did not need to do it the way they did. They had a moral choice and their choice was very bad. Maybe the chimps could have cooperated and it would have been a win, win situation.
          Really? Now you believe in free will? So why assign moral blame to the Europeans, and not the chimps? Are not Europeans acting just as much from their biological nature as the chimpanzees?
          Last edited by seer; 05-10-2014, 03:40 PM.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Really? So now you believe in free will? So why assign moral blame to the Europeans, and not the chimps? Are not Europeans acting just as much from their biological nature as the chimpanzees?
            Well we think that Europeans have a lot more self awareness than do chimps. We think they have much more of an ability to make those kind of "good" or "bad" calls.

            Evolutionary speaking, the less fit might have won in both cases, just as the more fit might have won.

            In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-

            1) It's God's will and

            2) You agree that it's God's will

            So was it God's will in both cases seer?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rwatts View Post
              Well we think that Europeans have a lot more self awareness than do chimps. We think they have much more of an ability to make those kind of "good" or "bad" calls.
              What does awareness have to do with whether there is freedom of will. Or whether we are just as biologically driven as chimpanzee. And where does "good" come into the picture? Good for whom?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Not even you are dumb enough not to know that I neither said nor implied no any such thing.
                Really Roy?
                Yes, really. But if I'm wrong, and you actually are that dumb, I'm happy to be corrected.
                So do you assign moral blame to the Europeans?
                Given that the colonisation of North America by Europeans took four centuries and involved many different events instigated by a wide range of cultures for a variety of reasons, I don't think it can be reduced to a simple yes/no answer. Nor do I see any point in producing a longer one since you've just demonstrated that your only interest in the answer is to distort it to support your preconceived purpose.

                Roy
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  What does awareness have to do with whether there is freedom of will.
                  ?

                  Because we like to think we have choices in how we act, based on what we call self awareness.


                  Originally posted by seer
                  Or whether we are just as biologically driven as chimpanzee.
                  Perhaps we are. But then there is this thing called self awareness which seems to be a new player, and takes us somewhat beyond being just biologically driven.

                  Originally posted by seer
                  And where does "good" come into the picture?
                  ????

                  Haven't you been told this repeatedly? Is it good that you completely ignore what we argue? Is it God's will that you completely ignore what we argue?

                  Why would it be God's will, and thus good, that you completely ignore what we argue?

                  "Good" and "bad" are values we assign.



                  Originally posted by seer
                  Good for whom?
                  See above.

                  In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-

                  1) It's God's will and

                  2) You agree that it's God's will

                  So was it God's will in both cases seer? And is it God's will that you continue to ignore what we argue in the context of "good" and "bad"?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rwatts View Post
                    ?

                    Because we like to think we have choices in how we act, based on what we call self awareness.


                    Perhaps we are. But then there is this thing called self awareness which seems to be a new player, and takes us somewhat beyond being just biologically driven.
                    Are you saying we have free will? That there is something beyond biology?


                    Haven't you been told this repeatedly? Is it good that you completely ignore what we argue?
                    Actually no, I haven't been.

                    "Good" and "bad" are values we assign.
                    So if the Europeans decided that what they did was good, and you decide that it was bad - who is correct?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Are you saying we have free will? That there is something beyond biology?
                      ???

                      Why shouldn't there be?




                      Originally posted by seer
                      Actually no, I haven't been.
                      Yes you have. Would you like the links?


                      Originally posted by seer
                      So if the Europeans decided that what they did was good, and you decide that it was bad - who is correct?
                      I think I am correct. That's a no brainer, isn't it?*

                      Who do you think was correct?

                      In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-

                      1) It's God's will and

                      2) You agree that it's God's will

                      So was it God's will in both cases seer- the Europeans and the chimps?



                      * Don't you ever think you are correct or incorrect about things? Do you think all your thoughts are God's thoughts and so you have no choice in the matter?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rwatts View Post
                        ???

                        Why shouldn't there be?
                        Have you ever read men like Sam Harris? From a materialist's point of view how is he off?

                        http://www.samharris.org/site/full_t...ure-at-caltech

                        I think I am correct. That's a no brainer, isn't it?*
                        And they think they are. Which answer is actually correct?

                        Who do you think was correct?
                        We are not speaking of me or my theological views. This is a Natural Science board. If you really want a theological discussion on ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and let me know.
                        Last edited by seer; 05-10-2014, 04:48 PM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Have you ever read men like Sam Harris? From a materialist's point of view how is he off?
                          I don't have the ability to watch an hour's worth of video on my machine.

                          So what is his argument?

                          Originally posted by seer in a previous post
                          Actually no, I haven't been.
                          Originally posted by rwatts
                          Yes you have. Would you like the links?
                          So do you want the links seer?


                          Originally posted by seer
                          And they think they are. Which answer is actually correct?
                          You think that the Europeans did good by invading and wiping out another culture, likewise you think the chimps did good by wiping out the other group?

                          In what sense is that an objective moral standard by your accounts? Does God agree with it?

                          Originally posted by seer
                          And they think they are. Which answer is actually correct?
                          Mine is correct, of course. (Do you think the European outlook was good, or bad - to use your system of judgement?)

                          Originally posted by seer
                          We are not speaking of me or my theological views. This is a Natural Science board. If you really want a theological discussion on ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and let me know.
                          But you titled your OP as a question of ethics. You keep on raising questions of ethics. You refer to objective ethical standards. I know you are thinking in terms of your beliefs about God, so:-

                          In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-

                          1) It's God's will and

                          2) You agree that it's God's will

                          So was it God's will in both cases seer- the Europeans and the chimps?



                          I'm happy to put questions to you in the same kind of light that you put questions to me. I'm happy to address your questions too.
                          Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 05:54 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rwatts View Post
                            I don't have the ability to watch an hour's worth of video on my machine.

                            So what is his argument?
                            That free will is n illusion, and not compatible with a scientific view of humanity.

                            You think that the Europeans did good by invading and wiping out another culture. Likewise you think the chimps did good by wiping out the other group?

                            In what sense is that an objective moral standard? Does God agree with it?

                            Mine is correct. In your view then, you think your view is correct because it's the objective view which is God's view?
                            But again you can not show that your opinion is any more valid or correct than the Europeans. Not only isn't there a correct answer there can't be a correct answer in your worldview. It all comes down to preference - one man likes steak, another lobster - neither is right or wrong, neither is more or less correct. That is why all your talk about ethics is, in the end, meaningless. Men arguing that preferring steak I better than preferring lobster.

                            Ok, I'm done here. If you want to start a thread ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and I will gladly jump in.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              That free will is n illusion, and not compatible with a scientific view of humanity.
                              Well, if it is an illusion, it's certainly an odd one. We like to think we have it, at the very least. So if my genes are telling me that I have it, then that's it. I have it. Most folk seem to share in my illusion and we agree that more or less, the European invasion cannot be justified in the context of taking the culture away from another group.

                              And we have told you this, repeatedly.

                              Originally posted by seer
                              But again you can not show that your opinion is any more valid or correct than the Europeans. Not only isn't there a correct answer there can't be a correct answer in your worldview. It all comes down to preference - one man likes steak, another lobster - neither is right or wrong, neither is more or less correct. That is why all your talk about ethics is, in the end, meaningless.
                              Well you having absolute, objective truth does not seem to help any. I know you are doing wrong when you continually avoid things like this:-

                              Originally posted by seer in a previous post
                              Actually no, I haven't been.
                              Originally posted by rwatts
                              Yes you have. Would you like the links?
                              Most people I think, would share my illusion. You are doing wrong.

                              If you think it correct because God agrees with it, then I'm interested in your evidence for this. I'll wager that God does not agree with it. So genes 'n God seem to agree.


                              Originally posted by seer
                              Ok, I'm done here. If you want to start a thread ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and I will gladly jump in.
                              It's up seer:-

                              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...3489#post53489
                              Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 06:26 PM.

                              Comment


                              • I was listening to lectures from my Global History from 1760 course this morning when I finally realized what I've been missing from the beginning.

                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                The Europeans come to North America, pretty much decimate the native population, and in the process create, arguably, one of the most powerful countries in history.
                                This entire scenario is false. It implies that the act of decimating the population is what gave rise to one of the most powerful countries in history. It completely ignores all developments before and after, developments which assuredly had a much greater impact than the removal of the local population. What's more, the most grievous crimes against the Native Americans took place starting in the 1830s. It was not prior to the establishment of colonies that the native population was decimated. It was a couple of centuries later.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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