Originally posted by Roy
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Ethics And Evolutionary Strategy
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen what Europeans did was good. If they say it was, and if there are no right answers, then like in the math example, it is an exercise in futility - useless moral jabbering.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is not the point, I'm not saying that all atheists are completely immoral and smell bad (though we are all sinners). Do you agree that what Europeans did and what the northern chimpanzees are both examples of evolutionary events? If not, what is the difference?
In both cases they improved the reproductive fitness of one group at the expense of another group. So they were good for one group but bad for another group. In the case of the humans, the Europeans did not need to do it the way they did. They had a moral choice and their choice was very bad. Maybe the chimps could have cooperated and it would have been a win, win situation.
That this happened was perhaps evolutionary bad in that the less fit group happened to win - in both cases.
Originally posted by seerThe second problem is this, the atheist has no independent ethical standard to appeal to.
Originally posted by seerSo you offer answers like - well what the Europeans did was good for them, but not good for the American Indian. As a moral theory this is completely useless or contradictory.
Originally posted by seerThe only objective standard you can appeal to -
Originally posted by seer- is was this strategy successful in the evolutionary sense - yes it was for Europeans, as with northern chimpanzees - and in the end that is all that counts - their genes get passed in, the genes from the losing groups don't, or are severely curtailed.
"Good" and "bad" are values we assign to the process of rainfall and evolution. As processes, they are neutral in how they feel about it. I'll wager that nether losing group thought it good, whether or not they accepted evolution. Many in the winning groups may have thought it good. In the case of humans though, not every one did. I don't think it was good.
I'll wager that you think it good in both cases, right seer, if you thought that it was God's will. Do you think it was God's will in both cases? If not, then how do you know?
Originally posted by seerIf God decides to remove an individual or individuals from this earth then it is a completely just act.
In such a universe of absolutes, you have no hope do you seer. Whatever God does to you, is always just. It's as good casting you in hell for believing as it is taking you into heaven. So why is one outcome any more likely than the other?Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 03:15 PM.
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Originally posted by rwatts View PostThey are events.
In both cases they improved the reproductive fitness of one group at the expense of another group. So they were good for one group but bad for another group. In the case of the humans, the Europeans did not need to do it the way they did. They had a moral choice and their choice was very bad. Maybe the chimps could have cooperated and it would have been a win, win situation.Last edited by seer; 05-10-2014, 03:40 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostReally? So now you believe in free will? So why assign moral blame to the Europeans, and not the chimps? Are not Europeans acting just as much from their biological nature as the chimpanzees?
Evolutionary speaking, the less fit might have won in both cases, just as the more fit might have won.
In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-
1) It's God's will and
2) You agree that it's God's will
So was it God's will in both cases seer?
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Originally posted by rwatts View PostWell we think that Europeans have a lot more self awareness than do chimps. We think they have much more of an ability to make those kind of "good" or "bad" calls.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNot even you are dumb enough not to know that I neither said nor implied no any such thing.So do you assign moral blame to the Europeans?
RoyJorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat does awareness have to do with whether there is freedom of will.
Because we like to think we have choices in how we act, based on what we call self awareness.
Originally posted by seerOr whether we are just as biologically driven as chimpanzee.
Originally posted by seerAnd where does "good" come into the picture?
Haven't you been told this repeatedly? Is it good that you completely ignore what we argue? Is it God's will that you completely ignore what we argue?
Why would it be God's will, and thus good, that you completely ignore what we argue?
"Good" and "bad" are values we assign.
Originally posted by seerGood for whom?
In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-
1) It's God's will and
2) You agree that it's God's will
So was it God's will in both cases seer? And is it God's will that you continue to ignore what we argue in the context of "good" and "bad"?
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Originally posted by rwatts View Post?
Because we like to think we have choices in how we act, based on what we call self awareness.
Perhaps we are. But then there is this thing called self awareness which seems to be a new player, and takes us somewhat beyond being just biologically driven.
Haven't you been told this repeatedly? Is it good that you completely ignore what we argue?
"Good" and "bad" are values we assign.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAre you saying we have free will? That there is something beyond biology?
Why shouldn't there be?
Originally posted by seerActually no, I haven't been.
Originally posted by seerSo if the Europeans decided that what they did was good, and you decide that it was bad - who is correct?
Who do you think was correct?
In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-
1) It's God's will and
2) You agree that it's God's will
So was it God's will in both cases seer- the Europeans and the chimps?
* Don't you ever think you are correct or incorrect about things? Do you think all your thoughts are God's thoughts and so you have no choice in the matter?
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Originally posted by rwatts View Post???
Why shouldn't there be?
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_t...ure-at-caltech
I think I am correct. That's a no brainer, isn't it?*
Who do you think was correct?Last edited by seer; 05-10-2014, 04:48 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHave you ever read men like Sam Harris? From a materialist's point of view how is he off?
So what is his argument?
Originally posted by seer in a previous postActually no, I haven't been.Originally posted by rwattsYes you have. Would you like the links?
Originally posted by seerAnd they think they are. Which answer is actually correct?
In what sense is that an objective moral standard by your accounts? Does God agree with it?
Originally posted by seerAnd they think they are. Which answer is actually correct?
Originally posted by seerWe are not speaking of me or my theological views. This is a Natural Science board. If you really want a theological discussion on ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and let me know.
In your world of absolute, objective morality, it seems that anything goes, providing two conditions are met:-
1) It's God's will and
2) You agree that it's God's will
So was it God's will in both cases seer- the Europeans and the chimps?
I'm happy to put questions to you in the same kind of light that you put questions to me. I'm happy to address your questions too.Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 05:54 PM.
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Originally posted by rwatts View PostI don't have the ability to watch an hour's worth of video on my machine.
So what is his argument?
You think that the Europeans did good by invading and wiping out another culture. Likewise you think the chimps did good by wiping out the other group?
In what sense is that an objective moral standard? Does God agree with it?
Mine is correct. In your view then, you think your view is correct because it's the objective view which is God's view?
Ok, I'm done here. If you want to start a thread ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and I will gladly jump in.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat free will is n illusion, and not compatible with a scientific view of humanity.
And we have told you this, repeatedly.
Originally posted by seerBut again you can not show that your opinion is any more valid or correct than the Europeans. Not only isn't there a correct answer there can't be a correct answer in your worldview. It all comes down to preference - one man likes steak, another lobster - neither is right or wrong, neither is more or less correct. That is why all your talk about ethics is, in the end, meaningless.
Originally posted by seer in a previous postActually no, I haven't been.Originally posted by rwattsYes you have. Would you like the links?
If you think it correct because God agrees with it, then I'm interested in your evidence for this. I'll wager that God does not agree with it. So genes 'n God seem to agree.
Originally posted by seerOk, I'm done here. If you want to start a thread ethics and the law of God start a thread on Apologetics 301 and I will gladly jump in.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...3489#post53489Last edited by rwatts; 05-10-2014, 06:26 PM.
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I was listening to lectures from my Global History from 1760 course this morning when I finally realized what I've been missing from the beginning.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe Europeans come to North America, pretty much decimate the native population, and in the process create, arguably, one of the most powerful countries in history.I'm not here anymore.
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