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Ethics And Evolutionary Strategy

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    You grant evolution too much in the way of anthropomorphic traits. Evolution has no consideration. It can't, because it doesn't think or plan or reason. There can't be a 'most important consideration'. Even reproductive success, while essential for another generation to arise, is not a goal. Evolution has no goals. It's merely a description of interacting effects. Natural Selection plus Random Mutation. That's it.

    No I'm not. I'm saying that the only this that matters, in the end, is survival.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No I'm not. I'm saying that the only this that matters, in the end, is survival.
      On what basis do you claim this? How does anything matter to an unthinking description of interactions?
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        On what basis do you claim this? How does anything matter to an unthinking description of interactions?
        It matters to creatures who survive or don't survive - doesn't it? But again Carrikature, I still haven't gotten an answer - wasn't what the Europeans did a successful strategy? Like what we see between Chimp groups.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          If that were true we would not have words like ‘good’ and ‘bad’. At our best, we are able to overcome our base nature. But without it you would not be here to debate the point – you would more likely be some other creature’s staple diet.
          But I'm not a materialist FF. There is nothing to overcome if materialism is correct - we are just animals doing what animals do.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #20
            What was the materialist's moral basis before Darwin?

            K54

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            • #21
              Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
              What was the materialist's moral basis before Darwin?

              K54
              You tell me. Plato's forms? Or perhaps what De Sade said: "Whatever is, is right." Or Nietzsche;

              Anything which is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant - not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power... 'Exploitation'... belongs to the essence of what lives, as a basic organic function; it is a consequence of the will to power, which is after all the will to life. From Beyond Good and Evil
              Last edited by seer; 05-08-2014, 11:20 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                You grant evolution too much in the way of anthropomorphic traits. Evolution has no consideration. It can't, because it doesn't think or plan or reason. There can't be a 'most important consideration'. Even reproductive success, while essential for another generation to arise, is not a goal. Evolution has no goals. It's merely a description of interacting effects. Natural Selection plus Random Mutation. That's it.
                The above is a yes and no scenario with a few ????. First it is too simplistic to say; 'That's it to Random Mutation and Natural Selection. In actuality genetic mutation is not 'just ' random.

                Your on the right track but your description is confusing; 'Evolution has (no consideration?). It can't, because it doesn't think or plan or reason.' Our concept of goals in human affairs does not exist in the process of evolution, nor anywhere else in the course of natural events. The science of evolution is a scientific description of how evolution functions in the biological world, but evolution itself is not 'merely a description of interacting effects.'

                In terms of Theistic Evolution, evolution itself would not necessarily be a direct hands on Divinely guided process. The Natural Law and physical nature of our existence was created to result in humanity and the world around us.

                God is a Creator, not an engineer nor designer.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-08-2014, 02:09 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The above is a yes and no scenario with a few ????. First it is too simplistic to say; 'That's it to Random Mutation and Natural Selection. In actuality genetic mutation is not 'just ' random.

                  Your on the right track but your description is confusing; 'Evolution has (no consideration?). It can't, because it doesn't think or plan or reason.' Our concept of goals in human affairs does not exist in the process of evolution, nor anywhere else in the course of natural events. The science of evolution is a scientific description of how evolution functions in the biological world, but evolution itself is not 'merely a description of interacting effects.'

                  In terms of Theistic Evolution, evolution itself would not necessarily be a direct hands on Divinely guided process. The Natural Law and physical nature of our existence was created to result in humanity and the world around us.

                  God is a Creator, not an engineer nor designer.
                  Shuny, obviously genetic mutation is not just random, but I didn't imply it was. Random mutation and natural selection are basic concepts of evolution and don't need to be explained. The bolded is exactly what I'm saying. Even in TE, evolution does not have goals. In that case, it would be a mechanism. God, or whatever, would possess the goals.
                  I'm not here anymore.

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                  • #24
                    This is kind of like asking "what does yellow sound like".
                    "The Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey, see a doctor and get rid of it."

                    Navin R. Johnson

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Wally View Post
                      This is kind of like asking "what does yellow sound like".
                      I bet someone with synesthesia would have no problem answering that question.






















                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I bet someone with synesthesia would have no problem answering that question.
                        D major

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          This came up in another thread but was off topic, I thought I would ask the question here: The Europeans come to North America, pretty much decimate the native population, and in the process create, arguably, one of the most powerful countries in history. From the evolutionary stand point this was a very successful strategy, and in the end, isn't that the most important consideration? So in the evolutionary sense - it was "good." Correct?
                          Evolution has given us a very complex, but wobbly lump of grey matter between our ears.

                          Evolution does not decide "good", "bad".

                          That wobbly lump of grey matter between our ears does.

                          That our ancestors came and wiped out other people so that we could exist was bad for those other people. Was it good for us? Well that's a tough one, because if they did not do it, we would not exist.

                          And if we did not exist, then the question would be meaningless.

                          So, was it good that our ancestors did it? I don't think so. Had they not done it, then I would not be upset.

                          (Perhaps in another sense, for some born again believers, it was good because 1) the missionaries could come and convert the survivors, and 2) of those that were killed, then God will have dealt with them as he saw fit. So, presuming that you are a born again believer seer, was it "good"?)
                          Last edited by rwatts; 05-08-2014, 03:58 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            I bet someone with synesthesia would have no problem answering that question.
                            I'll take a guess. It sounds like chocolate?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rwatts View Post
                              Evolution has given us a very complex, but wobbly lump of grey matter between our ears.

                              Evolution does not decide "good", "bad".

                              That wobbly lump of grey matter between our ears does.

                              That our ancestors came and wiped out other people so that we could exist was bad for those other people. Was it good for us? Well that's a tough one, because if they did not do it, we would not exist.

                              And if we did not exist, then the question would be meaningless.

                              So, was it good that our ancestors did it? I don't think so. Had they not done it, then I would not be upset.

                              (Perhaps in another sense, for some born again believers, it was good because 1) the missionaries could come and convert the survivors, and 2) of those that were killed, then God will have dealt with them as he saw fit. So, presuming that you are a born again believer seer, was it "good"?)
                              But there is no good or bad. That is my point - in the end there is only survival. Again:

                              In 1974, Jane Goodall witnessed a disturbing scene in Gombe Stream National Park, Tanzania. A gang of male chimpanzees invaded their neighbors’ territory and attacked a male chimp sitting by himself in a tree. The intruders dragged the chimpanzee to the ground, pinned him down, and bit and hit him all over his body. The attack ended when one member of the gang threw a rock at the bleeding victim. The battered chimp was never seen again and presumably died from his injuries.

                              The murderous chimpanzees weren’t attacking a stranger: They had recently all belonged to the same group. When the group split in two, one community took over the northern half of the range and the other the southern half. From 1974 to 1977, during the “four-year war,” the northern males obliterated the southern community, hunting down and killing all of its adult males. The northerners took over their enemies’ territory and females.

                              This was the first time scientists had documented “warfare” among chimpanzees. It wasn’t the last.
                              Is what the northern chimps did to the southern chimps good or bad?
                              Last edited by seer; 05-08-2014, 04:09 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Is what the northern chimps did to the southern chimps good or bad?
                                Evolutionary speaking - neither. Evolution has no perspective, any more than rainfall has a perspective. Both are natural processes.

                                From a human perspective, bad for the group that was wiped out, good for the group that did the wiping out. From the perspective of both groups, evolutionary advantageous if they had both cooperated?

                                If the group that did the wiping out was favoured by God, and the group that was wiped out was not favoured by God, would the outcome have been good or bad?
                                Last edited by rwatts; 05-08-2014, 05:00 PM.

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