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  • [QUOTE=DaveB;650104]
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Repeated misuse and misrepresentation of 'randomness.' Only the timing of a mutation or any other event, is random. The processes and outcome of the chain of events involving evolution are not random. They are determined by the LAws of NAture and the environment.

    I don't know where you're getting your definition of random, but if a mutation is random, not only is the "when" random, but also the "where" (where in the genome) and the "what" (what type of mutation).
    All of the above apply ONLY to the outcome of individual event outcomes. When and where would be timing of individual events in the genome. What is determined by the Laws of Nature. The outcome of the series of cause and effects is determined by natural laws and the environment,and not randomness. This actually true throughout the nature of our physical existence. Randomness only applies to the when and where an event takes place, which is the timing, and NOT what takes place.

    Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=random+definition&oq=random&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0l4.14456j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



    Random - made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In science
    Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=random+science+definition&oq=Random+science&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.7526j1j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers. Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Natural selection has a distinct pattern in nature, and the reason is the Laws of Nature.

    Randomness is used in science in research for unknown causes of variability in the outcome of research results.



    The 'method' in evolution 'natural selection' is determined by the Laws of Nature and the environment.

    Not according to HMS_Beagle.
    Your misrepresenting HMS Beagle.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-16-2019, 01:21 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
      You're wrong as usual. The mechanism is differential reproductive success. I just explained to you how it works but apparently you just don't have the ability to understand even such a simple concept.
      You didn't explain how it feeds back and is used in the regulation of mutations. What is the mechanism?


      Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
      The paper was discussing pre-biotic self replicators, not proteins. You're making willful ignorance into an art form.
      This is from your paper:
      The amyloid world hypothesis posits that in the pre-RNA era, information processing was based on catalytic amyloids.

      What is an amyloid?
      Amyloid is an abnormal protein that is produced in your bone marrow and can be deposited in any tissue or organ.

      What am I missing?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
        So Behe isn't a member of the ID community? Steve Fuller isn't a member of the ID community? Scott Minnich isn't a member of the ID community? Of course head ID spokeman at the time Bill Dembski was scheduled to testify but he chickened out.

        Once again you have no idea what you're blithering about.
        They did agree to testify, but only after the lawsuit was in place. The DI had urged the school board not to install the guidelines in the first place.

        Also, the defense was led by the Thomas More Law Center which is a religiously based group.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
          The processes and outcomes of the chain of events aren't the mutation, they're the result of the natural selection process which isn't random. Your ignorance of basic biology is staggering.
          You guys have a hard time actually responding to what I write.

          I'm not talking about natural selection at all.

          shunyadragon said that they only random part of a mutation is the timing. I disagreed with that.


          Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
          I'll thank you to not lie and misrepresent what I've said.
          shunyadragon said that the first replicators were primitive RNA. My reading of the paper that you linked to said otherwise.

          How am I misrepresenting what you said?

          Am I wrong about the paper?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
            You didn't explain how it feeds back and is used in the regulation of mutations. What is the mechanism?




            This is from your paper:
            The amyloid world hypothesis posits that in the pre-RNA era, information processing was based on catalytic amyloids.

            What is an amyloid?
            Amyloid is an abnormal protein that is produced in your bone marrow and can be deposited in any tissue or organ.

            What am I missing?
            Your missing the different types of amyloids in organic chemistry. The following is as it applies to abiogenesis is described in this research articel:

            Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/amyloid-protein-self-replication-abiogenesis-contrasts-rna-world



            Scientists Discover a Self-Replicating Protein Structure, And It Could Have Built The First Life on Earth
            MIKE MCRAE 4 MAR 2018

            Roughly 4 billion years ago an assortment of complex organic compounds went from being mere carbon soup to replicating biochemistry – the first steps to life on Earth.

            The order of these steps has been a source of debate for decades. Now, a recent discovery about a common protein structure could help tip the balance, bringing us closer to understanding just how we came to be here.


            Researchers from Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH) in Zürich have demonstrated that short strands of amyloid protein structures can direct the selection of amino acids to build even more amyloids.

            If the word amyloid doesn't sound familiar, they're a protein structure that's increasingly being found all over the place in nature.

            Part of the reason it's so common is that the amyloid has a special kink in it called a cross-β fold - this allows it to stick together into long, thin structures called fibrils.

            You might have come across them in relation to Alzheimer's disease – that 'stickiness' can sometimes cause clumps of amyloid beta to aggregate in the brain and lead to the degeneration of neural tissues.

            In fact it's this tendency to clump and cause disease that for a long time led scientists to consider amyloids to be a biological aberration.

            But now it looks like its talents may have actually contributed to kick-starting life itself billions of years ago.

            Just two years ago the ETH team found that peptides, which are chains of amino acids shorter than a typical protein - in this case just 5 to 14 units long - could spontaneously form amyloid structures in the presence of carbonyl sulphide.


            Fibres made up of amyloids had already been shown to act as enzyme-like catalysts, prompting the scientists to wonder if their possible formation on ancient Earth played a role in helping other organic compounds come together in the days before cells.

            Here the researchers take their hypothesis one step further by investigating whether amyloid sequences might also catalyse the construction of other peptides.

            The team designed sequences of amyloids to act as the equivalent of DNA primer strands, and mixed them in with select quantities of other amino acids and a few helper chemicals.

            By comparing the peptide sequences that resulted in these mixtures with ones that lacked designed 'primer' amyloid structures, the researchers found there was a huge advantage to having the amyloids in there.

            "This ability also potentially applies to the amyloid itself – meaning the molecules can self-replicate," says chemist Roland Riek.

            When it all boils down to it, life is special thanks to its ability to make imperfect copies of itself. Make enough copies, and some will do an even better job at replicating next time.

            © Copyright Original Source

            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Your missing the different types of amyloids in organic chemistry. The following is as it applies to abiogenesis is described in this research articel:

              Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/amyloid-protein-self-replication-abiogenesis-contrasts-rna-world



              Scientists Discover a Self-Replicating Protein Structure, And It Could Have Built The First Life on Earth
              MIKE MCRAE 4 MAR 2018

              Roughly 4 billion years ago an assortment of complex organic compounds went from being mere carbon soup to replicating biochemistry – the first steps to life on Earth.

              The order of these steps has been a source of debate for decades. Now, a recent discovery about a common protein structure could help tip the balance, bringing us closer to understanding just how we came to be here.


              Researchers from Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH) in Zürich have demonstrated that short strands of amyloid protein structures can direct the selection of amino acids to build even more amyloids.

              If the word amyloid doesn't sound familiar, they're a protein structure that's increasingly being found all over the place in nature.

              Part of the reason it's so common is that the amyloid has a special kink in it called a cross-β fold - this allows it to stick together into long, thin structures called fibrils.

              You might have come across them in relation to Alzheimer's disease – that 'stickiness' can sometimes cause clumps of amyloid beta to aggregate in the brain and lead to the degeneration of neural tissues.

              In fact it's this tendency to clump and cause disease that for a long time led scientists to consider amyloids to be a biological aberration.

              But now it looks like its talents may have actually contributed to kick-starting life itself billions of years ago.

              Just two years ago the ETH team found that peptides, which are chains of amino acids shorter than a typical protein - in this case just 5 to 14 units long - could spontaneously form amyloid structures in the presence of carbonyl sulphide.


              Fibres made up of amyloids had already been shown to act as enzyme-like catalysts, prompting the scientists to wonder if their possible formation on ancient Earth played a role in helping other organic compounds come together in the days before cells.

              Here the researchers take their hypothesis one step further by investigating whether amyloid sequences might also catalyse the construction of other peptides.

              The team designed sequences of amyloids to act as the equivalent of DNA primer strands, and mixed them in with select quantities of other amino acids and a few helper chemicals.

              By comparing the peptide sequences that resulted in these mixtures with ones that lacked designed 'primer' amyloid structures, the researchers found there was a huge advantage to having the amyloids in there.

              "This ability also potentially applies to the amyloid itself – meaning the molecules can self-replicate," says chemist Roland Riek.

              When it all boils down to it, life is special thanks to its ability to make imperfect copies of itself. Make enough copies, and some will do an even better job at replicating next time.

              © Copyright Original Source

              "Self-Replicating Protein Structure"

              Protein, not primative RNA.

              Comment


              • [QUOTE=shunyadragon;650114]
                Originally posted by DaveB View Post

                All of the above apply ONLY to the outcome of individual event outcomes. When and where would be timing of individual events in the genome. What is determined by the Laws of Nature. The outcome of the series of cause and effects is determined by natural laws and the environment,and not randomness. This actually true throughout the nature of our physical existence. Randomness only applies to the when and where an event takes place, which is the timing, and NOT what takes place.

                Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=random+definition&oq=random&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0l4.14456j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



                Random - made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

                © Copyright Original Source



                In science
                Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=random+science+definition&oq=Random+science&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.7526j1j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

                proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers. Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Natural selection has a distinct pattern in nature, and the reason is the Laws of Nature.

                Randomness is used in science in research for unknown causes of variability in the outcome of research results.



                The 'method' in evolution 'natural selection' is determined by the Laws of Nature and the environment.
                Glad to see that you added the "where".


                For a mutation, the "what" is what the mutation did to the DNA sequence.

                Was it a point mutation? Insertion? Deletion? etc.

                That's the "what" I'm talking about.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                  "Self-Replicating Protein Structure"



                  Protein, not primative RNA.
                  Protein structure is not simply proteins. The point of this article is to answer your question about amyloids.

                  You are picking frog hairs over terminology. Yes the primitive protein structures were primitive beginnings of RNA structures.

                  Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/compound-explains-phosphorylation-mystery-abiogenesis-origins-life



                  "We suggest a phosphorylation chemistry that could have given rise, all in the same place, to oligonucleotides, oligopeptides, and the cell-like structures to enclose them," says researcher Ramanarayanan Krishnamurthy.

                  Enter diamidophosphate (DAP).

                  Combined with imidazole acting as a catalyst, DAP could have bridged the critical gap from early compounds such as uridine and cytidine. That might not seem overly exciting, but phosphorylating nucleosides like these is a crucial step on the road to building the chains of RNA that could serve as the first primitive genes.

                  Some DAP in room-temperature water also managed to phosphorylate amino acids, as well as assist in their linking into short protein chains.

                  Even better than that, the researchers demonstrated the same agent could also marry phosphoryl groups with glycerol and fatty acids, producing the kinds of phospholipids that line up into cell membranes.

                  "With DAP and water and these mild conditions, you can get these three important classes of pre-biological molecules to come together and be transformed, creating the opportunity for them to interact together," says Krishnamurthy.


                  The diagram below gives you some idea of just how all-singing, all dancing this fancy compound is.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  It is obvious you are playing 'blind man's bluff' meaningless picking at terminology to justify your agenda without the foundation knowledge of even organic chemistry.'
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-16-2019, 02:30 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Protein structure is not simply proteins. The point of this article is to answer your question about amyloids.

                    You are picking frog hairs over terminology. Yes the primitive protein structures were primitive beginnings of RNA structures.

                    It is obvious you are playing 'blind man's bluff' meaningless picking at terminology to justify your agenda without the foundation knowledge of even organic chemistry.'
                    Yep. We have another ignorant but arrogant ID-Creationist trying to "win" with stupid rhetorical tricks while ignoring the significance of the actual scientific research. Yawn.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                      You didn't explain how it feeds back and is used in the regulation of mutations. What is the mechanism?
                      Are you just playing or are you really that stupid?

                      How does having green 0 and 00 on a roulette wheel guarantee the casino will make money on the game in the long term?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DaveB View Post

                        Glad to see that you added the "where".


                        For a mutation, the "what" is what the mutation did to the DNA sequence.

                        Was it a point mutation? Insertion? Deletion? etc.

                        That's the "what" I'm talking about.
                        The Laws of Nature limit the possible options of each mutation. Yes mutations may be point mutation, Insertion or deletion, but this randomness only applies to the individual mutation, and not the chain of mutations that the outcome is determined by Natural Laws. Actually the effect of each mutation is limited by the laws of nature reflected in the laws of chemistry, the environment and the resulting natural selection. The mutation also may be positive, neutral or harmful, and most are neutral, which is determined by the physiology, needs and benefits of the population which is natural selection, and NOT random.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-16-2019, 06:55 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                          You didn't explain how it feeds back and is used in the regulation of mutations. What is the mechanism?
                          The mechanism is how the original mutation is inherited in the offspring of the initial carrier. Does the mutation result in an increased number of inherited copies (a beneficial mutation), the average number of inherited copies (a neutral mutation) or a decreased number of inherited copies (a deleterious mutation). The process works like compound interest.

                          As an example, take a stable population of 1000 organisms; on average each organism has one descendant in the next generation. Now let a beneficial mutation appear with a 1% advantage, so the mutated organism will have on average 1.01 descendants in the next generation. For comparison I include ten other mutated organism with a 1% disadvantage. Start with a population of 10 deleterious, 989 neutral (or unmutated) and 1 beneficial mutations. See what happens if we let the population reproduce for one thousand generations:
                          Code:
                          Generation  Deleterious   Neutral   Beneficial
                          ----------  -----------   ------    ----------
                               0         10.0       989.00          1.00
                               1          9.9       989.00          1.01
                              10          9.0       989.00          1.10
                             100          3.7       989.00          2.70
                             500          0.1       989.00        144.77
                             700          0.0       989.00       1059.16
                            1000          0.0       989.00      20959.16
                          That is why beneficial mutations are more common overall. They are rare initially, but they are amplified and spread by natural selection. You can also see that the deleterious mutations are eliminated and do not spread, despite being more common initially.

                          This is a very simple model and easy to set up on a spreadsheet, but it is enough to show the advantage natural selection gives a beneficial mutation and how it spreads through a population over the generations.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                            You are aren't responding to what I said.

                            Here is what I was responding to.
                            And if several ribonucleotide bases are joined together into a single polymeric ribonucleic acid molecule, which is what happens during transcription, that would also be a chemical reaction.

                            Aside from the fact that saying bases are joined together is clearly wrong, my response was actually aimed at the bolded part of the post.

                            I'm saying that it isn't a (single) reaction. I'm not saying that there are no chemical reactions involved anywhere with transcription or translation (or biology in general),
                            That is what you said:
                            A chemical reaction is when the chemicals that are the inputs to the reaction are actually changed to other chemical(s). So, if the 3 bases molecules were mixed together and formed a molecule of a particular amino acid, then that would be a chemical reaction. But nothing like that is happening in the transcription/translation process.
                            That isn't remotely consistent with your revised claim that transcription involves more than just one chemical reaction.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                              This is from your paper:
                              The amyloid world hypothesis posits that in the pre-RNA era, information processing was based on catalytic amyloids.

                              What is an amyloid?
                              Amyloid is an abnormal protein that is produced in your bone marrow and can be deposited in any tissue or organ.

                              What am I missing?
                              Integrity.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                                Are you just playing or are you really that stupid?

                                How does having green 0 and 00 on a roulette wheel guarantee the casino will make money on the game in the long term?
                                As an aside, the presence of green 0 and 00 is itself the result of a feedback process - there were early roulette wheels with green 0/00/000 as well as IIRC some with just 0, but the former were shunned by customers and the latter didn't provide enough profits for the operators, so the current 0/00 became a de facto standard.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

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