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In the Beginning was Information.

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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    As an aside, the presence of green 0 and 00 is itself the result of a feedback process - there were early roulette wheels with green 0/00/000 as well as IIRC some with just 0, but the former were shunned by customers and the latter didn't provide enough profits for the operators, so the current 0/00 became a de facto standard.
    Heh. I didn't know that bit of trivia, thanks.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Protein structure is not simply proteins. The point of this article is to answer your question about amyloids.

      You are picking frog hairs over terminology. Yes the primitive protein structures were primitive beginnings of RNA structures.

      Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/compound-explains-phosphorylation-mystery-abiogenesis-origins-life



      "We suggest a phosphorylation chemistry that could have given rise, all in the same place, to oligonucleotides, oligopeptides, and the cell-like structures to enclose them," says researcher Ramanarayanan Krishnamurthy.

      Enter diamidophosphate (DAP).

      Combined with imidazole acting as a catalyst, DAP could have bridged the critical gap from early compounds such as uridine and cytidine. That might not seem overly exciting, but phosphorylating nucleosides like these is a crucial step on the road to building the chains of RNA that could serve as the first primitive genes.

      Some DAP in room-temperature water also managed to phosphorylate amino acids, as well as assist in their linking into short protein chains.

      Even better than that, the researchers demonstrated the same agent could also marry phosphoryl groups with glycerol and fatty acids, producing the kinds of phospholipids that line up into cell membranes.

      "With DAP and water and these mild conditions, you can get these three important classes of pre-biological molecules to come together and be transformed, creating the opportunity for them to interact together," says Krishnamurthy.


      The diagram below gives you some idea of just how all-singing, all dancing this fancy compound is.

      © Copyright Original Source



      It is obvious you are playing 'blind man's bluff' meaningless picking at terminology to justify your agenda without the foundation knowledge of even organic chemistry.'
      Sorry, but you're the one bluffing. This article isn't about amyloids at all.

      And a protein structure is just the 3D shape of a protein.

      Keep flailing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
        Are you just playing or are you really that stupid?

        How does having green 0 and 00 on a roulette wheel guarantee the casino will make money on the game in the long term?
        I'm not asking how a mutation might be beneficial or spread through a population.

        As usual, you are avoiding my question.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          I was going to write a technical response here, but I can't see the point. You know perfectly well that RNA is formed by linking the ribose of one ribonucleotide to the phosphate group of another, and the net effect is a strand in which ribonucleotide bases are strung together like diamonds on a bracelet - joined together but not necessarily directly touching.

          Yet you claim these strands are formed without a chemical reaction.
          Untrue. If someone had said, "there is a chemical reaction involved when nucleotides are joined together", I would have agreed with them.

          But that isn't what was claimed and it isn't what I was responding to.

          And, the fact that there is a chemical reaction involved is totally irrelevant to the sequence of the bases, which is what carries the information.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
            I'm not asking how a mutation might be beneficial or spread through a population.

            As usual, you are avoiding my question.
            Your question was answered. You're just not bright enough to understand the answer. Here it the mechanism again.

            Differential reproductive success. Individuals with reproductive advantage tend to reproduce more and spread their genes through the population.
            That is the feedback mechanism of evolution.
            Last edited by HMS_Beagle; 07-22-2019, 03:04 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rossum View Post
              It is for creationists who have neither. Or do you have a paper describing divine creation of the relevant molecules?
              What kind of foolish false premise is this? Are you serious (of course you aren't)

              Originally posted by rossum View Post

              Non-intelligent, natural processes can make purines and pyrimidines in conditions like those on a prebiotic earth.
              Complicated lab experiments do not show that undirected natural processes could do the same thing.



              Originally posted by rossum View Post
              Yes it is. Frank Lloyd Wright was an intelligent designer. ID has a great deal to say about the origin of that particular intelligent designer.

              Or are you telling us that the intelligence in an intelligent designer is low complexity and so does not require design? Did Frank Lloyd Wright require design?
              Are you suggesting that Frank Lloyd Wright was the designer of life or the information needed for the Cambrian Explosion? Really?


              Originally posted by rossum View Post
              Confirming my point. An intelligent designer contains complex information and so requires deign. ID studiously avoids the point bacause it cannot just say "God is eternal" since that would destroy the political idea behind ID.
              You don't have a point, you have a dumb false premise.


              Originally posted by rossum View Post
              So measure it as Kolmogorov information, which is defined as the smallest representation of the information. And yes, simple evolutinary processe can increase Kolmogorov information as well.
              Not only do you incorrectly call Kolmogorov complexity "information", you don't even understand it.

              The complexity of a string is determined by the smallest representation of the string itself (not the functionality of the string), but the smaller the representation, the less complex the string is, not more complex.

              You have it totally backwards.




              Originally posted by rossum View Post
              Jesus was a material being and biologically alive. Jesus is God. Or are you a non-Trinitarian?
              Jesus assumed a material form long after the creation of life or the assumed time of the Cambrian Explosion.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                Untrue. If someone had said, "there is a chemical reaction involved when nucleotides are joined together", I would have agreed with them.
                You can pretend so, but your actual response was this:
                And if several ribonucleotide bases are joined together into a single polymeric ribonucleic acid molecule, which is what happens during transcription, that would also be a chemical reaction.
                No, it is not a chemical reaction.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The Laws of Nature limit the possible options of each mutation. Yes mutations may be point mutation, Insertion or deletion, but this randomness only applies to the individual mutation, and not the chain of mutations that the outcome is determined by Natural Laws. Actually the effect of each mutation is limited by the laws of nature reflected in the laws of chemistry, the environment and the resulting natural selection. The mutation also may be positive, neutral or harmful, and most are neutral, which is determined by the physiology, needs and benefits of the population which is natural selection, and NOT random.
                  OK, I think you're finally admitting that the "what" (the type of mutation that is occuring) is also random in addition to the "when" and "where".

                  Unlike your original assertion.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                    Untrue. If someone had said, "there is a chemical reaction involved when nucleotides are joined together", I would have agreed with them.

                    But that isn't what was claimed and it isn't what I was responding to.

                    And, the fact that there is a chemical reaction involved is totally irrelevant to the sequence of the bases, which is what carries the information.
                    Of all the hills to die on, the fact that Roy phrased things so that chemical reaction was singular just seems a phenomenal waste of time.
                    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                      OK, I think you're finally admitting that the "what" (the type of mutation that is occuring) is also random in addition to the "when" and "where".

                      Unlike your original assertion.
                      No admitting anything. You are unethically misrepresenting my posts and references.

                      Your blatant blind hostility toward science base don your agenda is very obvious.

                      Randomness is only observed in the outcome of single events, and not the processes of science in abiogenesis and evolution.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-22-2019, 03:35 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rossum View Post
                        The mechanism is how the original mutation is inherited in the offspring of the initial carrier. Does the mutation result in an increased number of inherited copies (a beneficial mutation), the average number of inherited copies (a neutral mutation) or a decreased number of inherited copies (a deleterious mutation). The process works like compound interest.

                        As an example, take a stable population of 1000 organisms; on average each organism has one descendant in the next generation. Now let a beneficial mutation appear with a 1% advantage, so the mutated organism will have on average 1.01 descendants in the next generation. For comparison I include ten other mutated organism with a 1% disadvantage. Start with a population of 10 deleterious, 989 neutral (or unmutated) and 1 beneficial mutations. See what happens if we let the population reproduce for one thousand generations:
                        Code:
                        Generation  Deleterious   Neutral   Beneficial
                        ----------  -----------   ------    ----------
                             0         10.0       989.00          1.00
                             1          9.9       989.00          1.01
                            10          9.0       989.00          1.10
                           100          3.7       989.00          2.70
                           500          0.1       989.00        144.77
                           700          0.0       989.00       1059.16
                          1000          0.0       989.00      20959.16
                        That is why beneficial mutations are more common overall. They are rare initially, but they are amplified and spread by natural selection. You can also see that the deleterious mutations are eliminated and do not spread, despite being more common initially.

                        This is a very simple model and easy to set up on a spreadsheet, but it is enough to show the advantage natural selection gives a beneficial mutation and how it spreads through a population over the generations.
                        Compound interest?

                        Wow.

                        Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

                        Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

                        You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

                        Simple model? More like a simple minded model.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                          Compound interest?

                          Wow.

                          Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

                          Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

                          You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

                          Simple model? More like a simple minded model.
                          Rossum provided you with a simple mathematical example of how differential reproductive success works in evolution and you can't even understand that. Wow indeed.

                          I take it you're not going to try and defend Meyer's "Darwin's Doubt" stupidity about the Cambrian explosion, right?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                            Compound interest?
                            No, not "compound interest" but "like compound interest". You failure to read what I posted is down to you, not to me.

                            Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation.
                            Again, you fail to read what I posted. I said, "the mutated organism will have on average 1.01 descendants in the next generation". Do you not understand the meaning of "on average"?

                            Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?
                            Now for a difficult mathematical question. If we add a 1% advantage and subtract a 1% disadvantage then what is the overall average (yes, that word again) result? Take as long as you want, there is no time limit.

                            You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.
                            Did you understand the definition of a "beneficial" mutation? It is a mutation which on average passes more copies of itself into future generations than the average. If it didn't then it wouldn't be beneficial, by definition.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DaveB View Post
                              Compound interest?

                              Wow.

                              Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

                              Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

                              You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

                              Simple model? More like a simple minded model.
                              Why don't you show us that your model isn't at least as simple-minded by producing the equivalent calculations under ID? E.g. your calculation for the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial design feature will also have some compensating detriment.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                              Comment

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