Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Is fingerprint evidence faulty?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is fingerprint evidence faulty?

    Quite possibly. At least according to a report by the British expert that introduced the first automated fingerprint detection system to the Metropolitan Police and the Home Office’s first Forensic Science Regulator, Mike Silverman. He claims that despite what is widely believed it has not been shown that fingerprints are unique.

    He points out that "not everyone’s fingerprints have been recorded so it’s impossible to prove that no two are the same" and added that while "it’s improbable, but so is winning the lottery, and people do that every week."

    Silverman also notes that families can share elements of the same pattern and thinks that such factors as human error, partial prints and false positives mean that fingerprints evidence is not infallible.

    Elaborating on some of the problems Silverman said that, "No two fingerprints are ever exactly alike in every detail; even two impressions recorded immediately after each other from the same finger. And the fingerprint often isn’t perfect, particularly at a crime scene. It might be dirty or smudged. There are all sorts of things that reduce the accuracy.”

    He added that, "It requires an expert examiner to determine whether a print taken from crime scene and one taken from a subject are likely to have originated from the same finger."

    He also pointed to other difficulties such as scanning fingerprints of the elderly as their skin loses elasticity making them warped and some conditions that leaves some people with smooth, featureless fingertips. I remember a police officer friend of mine telling me how his bricklayer son-in-law had virtually no fingerprints.

    Silverman also pointed to several cases were innocent people have been wrongly accused based on inaccurate fingerprinting evidence. For example back in 2004, an attorney from Oregon, Brandon Mayfield, was wrongly linked to the Madrid train bombings by FBI fingerprint experts who claimed to identify his prints as being on a bag containing detonating devices were found by Spanish authorities. The FBI described the fingerprint match as "100% verified" and as a result he was arrested and detained for two weeks before being released.

    Also noted was a recent study by Southampton University found that two thirds of experts who were unknowingly shown the same sets of fingerprints twice came to a different conclusion on the second occasion.



    Further Reading:

    Why your fingerprints may not be unique

    Are Forensics Experts Relying On Inconsistent Fingerprint Technology?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  • #2
    This was part of an old episode of Law & Order.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #3

      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Comment


      • #4
        Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes.
          You're too late - they already did.

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            You're too late - they already did.
            Why are you PICKING on me? Following me to EVERY THREAD and picking on me just to be MEAN!!!! You STALKER!!!!!

            And, no they did NOT!
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              Did, too!


              http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/0...-fell-in-1963/

              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Comment


              • #8
                So Rogue, are you saying that a brick left underwater for a coupla months won't have a 100% accurate fingerprint? CSI has lied to me


                On the serious side, pineapple juice also tends to remove fingerprints.
                "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                1 Corinthians 16:13

                "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                -Ben Witherington III

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post


                  I'm colorblind, and even I can tell they have different backgrounds!
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Quite possibly. At least according to a report by the British expert that introduced the first automated fingerprint detection system to the Metropolitan Police and the Home Office’s first Forensic Science Regulator, Mike Silverman. He claims that despite what is widely believed it has not been shown that fingerprints are unique.

                    He points out that "not everyone’s fingerprints have been recorded so it’s impossible to prove that no two are the same" and added that while "it’s improbable, but so is winning the lottery, and people do that every week."

                    Silverman also notes that families can share elements of the same pattern and thinks that such factors as human error, partial prints and false positives mean that fingerprints evidence is not infallible.

                    Elaborating on some of the problems Silverman said that, "No two fingerprints are ever exactly alike in every detail; even two impressions recorded immediately after each other from the same finger. And the fingerprint often isn’t perfect, particularly at a crime scene. It might be dirty or smudged. There are all sorts of things that reduce the accuracy.”

                    He added that, "It requires an expert examiner to determine whether a print taken from crime scene and one taken from a subject are likely to have originated from the same finger."

                    He also pointed to other difficulties such as scanning fingerprints of the elderly as their skin loses elasticity making them warped and some conditions that leaves some people with smooth, featureless fingertips. I remember a police officer friend of mine telling me how his bricklayer son-in-law had virtually no fingerprints.

                    Silverman also pointed to several cases were innocent people have been wrongly accused based on inaccurate fingerprinting evidence. For example back in 2004, an attorney from Oregon, Brandon Mayfield, was wrongly linked to the Madrid train bombings by FBI fingerprint experts who claimed to identify his prints as being on a bag containing detonating devices were found by Spanish authorities. The FBI described the fingerprint match as "100% verified" and as a result he was arrested and detained for two weeks before being released.

                    Also noted was a recent study by Southampton University found that two thirds of experts who were unknowingly shown the same sets of fingerprints twice came to a different conclusion on the second occasion.



                    Further Reading:

                    Why your fingerprints may not be unique

                    Are Forensics Experts Relying On Inconsistent Fingerprint Technology?
                    This thread is a DUD. I know of not a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint. It is always the case that a fingerprint is combined with other evidences that THEN leads to a conviction and sentencing. R06's thinking here is as shallow as it is towards Biblical Creationism and ID. No wonder he's lost.

                    Oh well ... my work here is done ... off to another mission.

                    jorge

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                      This thread is a DUD. I know of not a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint. It is always the case that a fingerprint is combined with other evidences that THEN leads to a conviction and sentencing. R06's thinking here is as shallow as it is towards Biblical Creationism and ID. No wonder he's lost.

                      Oh well ... my work here is done ... off to another mission.

                      jorge
                      That depends on what you mean by "a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint." If you mean that this was the only physical evidence linking the suspect to a crime, then you would be wrong. But usually if not alway,s there is going to be something more if not necessarily physical evidence. For instance, if the person had a motive.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes.
                        NOW will you believe me when I say just cause you found my fingerprints on that empty package of bacon doesn't necessarily mean I took it

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                          So Rogue, are you saying that a brick left underwater for a coupla months won't have a 100% accurate fingerprint? CSI has lied to me
                          Law & Order and any of its spin-offs is way better than any of the versions of CSI.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Law & Order and any of its spin-offs is way better than any of the versions of CSI.
                            I prefer NCIS. I stopped watching the CSI's a while ago.
                            "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                            -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                            1 Corinthians 16:13

                            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                            -Ben Witherington III

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                              I prefer NCIS. I stopped watching the CSI's a while ago.
                              Yeah, and NCIS is a spinoff of JAG.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Seeker, Yesterday, 08:58 AM
                              8 responses
                              55 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post lee_merrill  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-27-2020, 03:18 PM
                              1 response
                              26 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post lee_merrill  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-17-2020, 05:11 PM
                              7 responses
                              39 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by shunyadragon, 10-09-2020, 09:25 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by rogue06, 10-09-2020, 03:29 PM
                              6 responses
                              52 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Working...
                              X