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The Fountains of the Great Deep...

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  • The Fountains of the Great Deep...

    Confirmed!


    The diamond from Brazil confirms that the models are correct: Olivine is ringwoodite at this depth, a layer called the mantle transition zone. And it resolves a long-running debate about water in the mantle transition zone. The ringwoodite is 1.5 percent water, present not as a liquid but as hydroxide ions (oxygen and hydrogen molecules bound together). The results suggest there could be a vast store of water in the mantle transition zone, which stretches from 254 to 410 miles (410 to 660 km) deep.

    "It translates into a very, very large mass of water, approaching the sort of mass of water that's present in all the world's ocean," Pearson told Live Science's Our Amazing Planet.
    But YEC's never came up with any good ideas of scientific-historical models, right?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
    Confirmed!




    But YEC's never came up with any good ideas of scientific-historical models, right?

    Right.
    "The Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey, see a doctor and get rid of it."

    Navin R. Johnson

    Comment


    • #3
      They did come up with the MRI. They deserve credit for that.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Mri?
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Mri?
          Magnetic Resonance Imaging was invented by a YEC.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            They did come up with the MRI. They deserve credit for that.
            Uh... While Raymond Damadian, who was a YEC, did invent the first MRI it can not be said that he came up with it. That credit goes to H. Y. Carr who came up with it and produced a one-dimensional MRI for his PhD thesis nearly 20 years earlier. This model was used for years primarily to analyze a material's chemical structure

            Further, Damadian's design, while it did work, was far from practical. For one thing while it could distinguish between tumors and other tissues it didn't generate a picture of the scan and his method produced results that were too inconsistent for diagnosis work. Shortly after, improving on Carr's original design, Paul Lauterbur, produced a machine that could be used to create images of the body and which Peter Mansfield improved upon.

            Lauterbur and Mansfield were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Both Carr or Damadian were snubbed with the latter being quite furious and did not take the exclusion lying down vigorously protesting it. The reasons given is that the award was given for the development of Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging, something Damadian didn't do. Awards are often given to those that make something practical rather than those who first develop it.

            Since only up to three people can be given credit when granting the award many think that since if they picked either Carr or Damadian it would unfairly exclude the other the decision was made not to honor either of them.

            Others speculated that Damadian was excluded due to his intensive lobbying for the prize and his well-known abrasive personality -- neither of which won him many supporters. Still, those are not legitimate reasons for excluding someone.

            Neither would that be a valid reason for excluding Damadian because he was a YEC -- something that Michael Ruse suggested might have factored into the decision.

            Source: The Nobel Prize in Medicine—Was there a religious factor in this year’s (non) selection?


            I cringe at the thought that Raymond Damadian was refused his just honor because of his religious beliefs. Having silly ideas in one field is no good reason to deny merit for great ideas in another field. Apart from the fact that this time the Creation Scientists will think that there is good reason to think that they are the objects of unfair treatment at the hands of the scientific community.

            © Copyright Original Source



            But Damadian himself discounted this as a potential reason saying he never even heard of such reasoning before Ruse brought it up and apparently never thought it was a factor after it had been.
            Last edited by rogue06; 03-22-2014, 05:19 PM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #7
              So, had Carr and Damadian not done their work the guys that did get the prize wouldn't have had anything to work from - this sounds fair to someone?

              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Uh... While Raymond Damadian, who was a YEC, did invent the first MRI it can not be said that he came up with it. That credit goes to H. Y. Carr who came up with it and produced a one-dimensional MRI for his PhD thesis nearly 20 years earlier. This model was used for years primarily to analyze a material's chemical structure

                Further, Damadian's design, while it did work, was far from practical. For one thing while it could distinguish between tumors and other tissues it didn't generate a picture of the scan and his method produced results that were too inconsistent for diagnosis work. Shortly after, improving on Carr's original design, Paul Lauterbur, produced a machine that could be used to create images of the body and which Peter Mansfield improved upon.

                Lauterbur and Mansfield were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Both Carr or Damadian were snubbed with the latter being quite furious and did not take the exclusion lying down vigorously protesting it. The reasons given is that the award was given for the development of Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging, something Damadian didn't do. Awards are often given to those that make something practical rather than those who first develop it.

                Since only up to three people can be given credit when granting the award many think that since if they picked either Carr or Damadian it would unfairly exclude the other the decision was made not to honor either of them.

                Others speculated that Damadian was excluded due to his intensive lobbying for the prize and his well-known abrasive personality -- neither of which won him many supporters. Still, those are not legitimate reasons for excluding someone.

                Neither would that be a valid reason for excluding Damadian because he was a YEC -- something that Michael Ruse suggested might have factored into the decision.

                Source: The Nobel Prize in Medicine—Was there a religious factor in this year’s (non) selection?


                I cringe at the thought that Raymond Damadian was refused his just honor because of his religious beliefs. Having silly ideas in one field is no good reason to deny merit for great ideas in another field. Apart from the fact that this time the Creation Scientists will think that there is good reason to think that they are the objects of unfair treatment at the hands of the scientific community.

                © Copyright Original Source



                But Damadian himself discounted this as a potential reason saying he never even heard of such reasoning before Ruse brought it up and apparently never thought it was a factor after it had been.
                To elaborate a bit on the bolded part, one famous example is that of Josiah Gibbs, whose work on chemical thermodynamics was instrumental in transforming physical chemistry into a rigorous deductive science. Since his work was primarily theoretical the Nobel was given to Jacobus H. van 't Hoff -- whose work built on Gibbs'. Two later award winners were also for work based upon Gibbs', J. D. van der Waals and Max Planck.

                Dimitri Mendeleev, who developed the periodic table was snubbed largely because it was said that his work was too well-known And again like Gibbs, other chemists got Nobels for what Mendeleev did, such as Henri Moissan for discovering elements just where Mendeleev predicted they would be found.

                Another example are Victor Ambros, Gary Ruvkun and David Baulcombe. While Andrew Fire and Craig Mello got the Nobel in physiology or medicine for their work with RNA, it was based upon the work done by the three aforementioned scientists.

                And keep in mind that Mohandas Gandhi never was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize whereas Al Gore and Barack Obama were. The latter was given it "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples" just nine months into his presidency (with the decision actually being reached when he had only been in office a couple of weeks!).

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  To elaborate a bit on the bolded part, one famous example is that of Josiah Gibbs, whose work on chemical thermodynamics was instrumental in transforming physical chemistry into a rigorous deductive science. Since his work was primarily theoretical the Nobel was given to Jacobus H. van 't Hoff -- whose work built on Gibbs'. Two later award winners were also for work based upon Gibbs', J. D. van der Waals and Max Planck.

                  Dimitri Mendeleev, who developed the periodic table was snubbed largely because it was said that his work was too well-known And again like Gibbs, other chemists got Nobels for what Mendeleev did, such as Henri Moissan for discovering elements just where Mendeleev predicted they would be found.

                  Another example are Victor Ambros, Gary Ruvkun and David Baulcombe. While Andrew Fire and Craig Mello got the Nobel in physiology or medicine for their work with RNA, it was based upon the work done by the three aforementioned scientists.

                  And keep in mind that Mohandas Gandhi never was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize whereas Al Gore and Barack Obama were. The latter was given it "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples" just nine months into his presidency (with the decision actually being reached when he had only been in office a couple of weeks!).
                  FYI: Obama had been president only a few weeks. President-elect doesn't count as part of the presidency.

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Uh... While Raymond Damadian, who was a YEC, did invent the first MRI it can not be said that he came up with it. That credit goes to H. Y. Carr who came up with it and produced a one-dimensional MRI for his PhD thesis nearly 20 years earlier. This model was used for years primarily to analyze a material's chemical structure
                    Purcell and Bloch were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for inventing NMR, and Erwin Hahn is credited with inventing the spin-echo technique:
                    (http://www.scmr.org/assets/files/mem...A_175489_O.pdf)

                    Did NONE of these guys ever suggest imaging with NMR? I'd be surprised if they didn't.
                    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      FYI: Obama had been president only a few weeks. President-elect doesn't count as part of the presidency.
                      The award was given in October 2009 - roughly nine months into his presidency.

                      The decision was made on February 1, 2009, hence my statement
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      (with the decision actually being reached when he had only been in office a couple of weeks!).

                      Obama was sworn in on January 20, 2009 meaning I was actually being generous when I said "he had only been in office a couple of weeks!"


                      In any case we're getting rather far away from the OP

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                        Confirmed!




                        But YEC's never came up with any good ideas of scientific-historical models, right?
                        It's quite a leap of faith and even a greater leap of high temperature/pressure petrology and mineralogy to claim that this chemically dissociated form of "water" which is tightly incorporated in minerals' crystal structure is a mobile enough to have been the source of the "Fountains of the Deep". The hypothesis for a "wet" upper mantle is water from icy meteor impacts while Earth was mostly molten and chemical reactions could occur to incorporate water into mineral crystal structures.

                        Any idea how this bound water was released and how it got back to the upper mantle without tremendous heat to drive the chemical reactions?

                        Your initial quote and post mean nothing to me, but often, like mantle rock, I'm quite dense.

                        Santa

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So the answer to your question: Right? Is very likely "No".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A significant part of the argument has been that there is insufficient H20 on the Earth for the Great Flood - this finding challenges that point.

                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The hypothesis for a "wet" upper mantle is water from icy meteor impacts while Earth was mostly molten and chemical reactions could occur to incorporate water into mineral crystal structures.
                              The Fountains hypothesis sounds a whole lot more likely to explain the scale, spread, and persistence of water at that depth than 'icy meteor impacts', even over a very long period of time. Asking me to believe that a meteor made the dinosaurs extinct is reasonable, asking me to believe that therefore meteors explain all of the subterranean water around the world is not.

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