Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Anti-Vaxx 101 Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Anti-Vaxx 101 Thread

    Well, keeping it straight to the point, even though COVID-19 is ''over'' in many countries throughout the world, there are several questions that still pop up from time to time. So, I decided to create a thread where we can attempt to debunk anti-vaxx claims (concerning all vaccines but ESPECIALLY the ones against COVID-19). So, I myself will start. My own father does not believe in COVID-19 vaccines, and took one shot only (so not even ''fully'' vaccinated). He claims that the vaccine(s) don't work, since the Pzifer CEO got COVID-19 twice. I realize some people are immune (pun intended) to rationality, but what can I say against his claim?

    Anyone can chime in...

  • #2
    You can tell him he's right. Because before the CDC ridiculously changed the definition of the word "vaccine" in 2021, it meant, and still does mean:

    a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and [bold] provide immunity[/bold] against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.


    The CDC, like so many left-leaning persons these days, (see "birthing person", for example) changed the definition of the bolded words to "provide protection" after they saw that the shot didn’t prevent people from getting the disease.

    These anti-covid shots should not be called vaccines. And instead of changing the definition of the word, the CDC should have apologized and started calling it something other than "vaccine".

    You can also tell him that there is more and more indication that the shots cause real harm, especially to young people, such as myocarditis.
    Last edited by mossrose; 10-09-2022, 09:51 AM.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      You can tell him he's right. Because before the CDC ridiculously changed the definition of the word "vaccine" in 2021, it meant, and still does mean:

      a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and [bold] provide immunity[/bold] against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.


      The CDC, like so many left-leaning persons these days, (see "birthing person", for example) changed the definition of the bolded words to "provide protection" after they saw that the shot didn’t prevent people from getting the disease.
      I believe that the CDC changed the wording in order to deal with people who don't understand what "immunity" means, such as yourself.

      These anti-covid shots should not be called vaccines. And instead of changing the definition of the word, the CDC should have apologized and started calling it something other than "vaccine".
      By your definition, there are no vaccines. There is no vaccine that you can get which will make it impossible for you to get infected.

      The covid-19 vaccines provide immunity, which means that you are less likely to get infected, and less likely to be hospitalized or die, after you've been immunized,

      You can also tell him that there is more and more indication that the shots cause real harm, especially to young people, such as myocarditis.
      No vaccines are perfectly safe, either.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Seeker View Post
        Well, keeping it straight to the point, even though COVID-19 is ''over'' in many countries throughout the world, there are several questions that still pop up from time to time. So, I decided to create a thread where we can attempt to debunk anti-vaxx claims (concerning all vaccines but ESPECIALLY the ones against COVID-19). So, I myself will start. My own father does not believe in COVID-19 vaccines, and took one shot only (so not even ''fully'' vaccinated). He claims that the vaccine(s) don't work, since the Pzifer CEO got COVID-19 twice. I realize some people are immune (pun intended) to rationality, but what can I say against his claim?

        Anyone can chime in...
        Well, when I got childhood vaccines they basically protected me from those illnesses. That's what a vaccine should do. I never caught chicken pox, measles, polio, small pox (etc.) and I credit the vaccines to that (in part).

        I had covid in April 2020, was fully vaccinated with Pfizer in August 2020, and caught covid again in January 2021. The second time lasted longer than the first, although maybe slightly less intense. If there is no appreciable effect from a vaccine then it could have been a placebo, for all I know. Because of my age, I decided it was worth the gamble to get vaccinated, but I recommended to my family that anyone under 40 should not get it. Probably under 50 even. They have several decades of life yet to go and any long-term side effects from the vaccine may not be known until 2050 or so.
        "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
        "
        Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          The covid-19 vaccines provide immunity, which means that you are less likely to get infected, and less likely to be hospitalized or die, after you've been immunized,
          I hear this assertion often, but are there any studies that support it?
          "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
          "
          Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ronson View Post

            I hear this assertion often, but are there any studies that support it?
            Yes, and they aren't hard to find.

            "Only 42 studies met our inclusion criteria, which revealed that the COVID-19 vaccines have successfully reduced the rates of infections, severity, hospitalization, and mortality among the different populations."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              Well, when I got childhood vaccines they basically protected me from those illnesses. That's what a vaccine should do. I never caught chicken pox, measles, polio, small pox (etc.) and I credit the vaccines to that (in part).
              Some vaccines are more effective than others.

              But part of the effectiveness of those vaccines is the fact that such a high percentage of the population gets the vaccines that the prevalence of the diseases is very low. If you aren't exposed to the disease, you won't get infected, even if in your case the vaccine was not effective.

              I had covid in April 2020, was fully vaccinated with Pfizer in August 2020, and caught covid again in January 2021. The second time lasted longer than the first, although maybe slightly less intense. If there is no appreciable effect from a vaccine then it could have been a placebo, for all I know.
              You can't really judge the effectiveness of a vaccine by how well it works for one person, or even by how many people get infected after being vaccinated. There is a reason that scientific studies use randomized treatment and control groups.

              Comment


              • #8
                That article doesn't tell me an awful lot without pulling together and crunching the numbers. One test was done only on 18-year olds, another one only on one variant. I won't ask you to look for a summary, I will hunt around (since they "aren't hard to find").

                Some vaccines are more effective than others.

                But part of the effectiveness of those vaccines is the fact that such a high percentage of the population gets the vaccines that the prevalence of the diseases is very low. If you aren't exposed to the disease, you won't get infected, even if in your case the vaccine was not effective.
                Granted. Smallpox was thought to be exterminated by the time I was vaccinated.

                You can't really judge the effectiveness of a vaccine by how well it works for one person, or even by how many people get infected after being vaccinated. There is a reason that scientific studies use randomized treatment and control groups.
                The scarier part is that I had covid in April and then got it again the following January. That means natural immunity didn't work for me either. I understand Biden just had this happen as well. Since neither infection came close to putting me in the hospital (I worked throughout the first case I had) then the question becomes: Are the risks worth the potential gains by getting vaccinated anymore, or getting boosters? I'd say "no." I am done with covid vaccines.
                "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                "
                Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  I believe that the CDC changed the wording in order to deal with people who don't understand what "immunity" means, such as yourself.
                  You mean like how the left changed the word "mother" to "birthing person" in order to deal with people who don't understand what "mother" means? You mean like that"


                  [quote]The covid-19 vaccines provide immunity, which means that you are less likely to get infected, and less likely to be hospitalized or die, after you've been immunized,


                  [quote]
                  I don't think that word means what you think it means.


                  https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pu...t-is-immunity/

                  Immunity refers to the body’s ability to prevent the invasion of pathogens. Pathogens are foreign disease-causing substances, such as bacteria and viruses, and people are exposed to them every day. Antigens are attached to the surface of pathogens and stimulate an immune response in the body. An immune response is the body’s defense system to fight against antigens and protect the body.



                  Just because you've drunk the covid koolaid doesn't mean that I have to.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Does the immune system need a different antibody for each strain of coronavirus(then just vaccinate for the most dangerous strains and let the immune ssystem handle omicron)? How else could people get sick with something twice? Kinda like how the flu mutates so you can get it multiple times and they might guess wrong on the variant to make a vaccine for? Why are some pathogens easier to vaccinate against than others? What is up with respiratory viruses mutating so fast anyway?!
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      The scarier part is that I had covid in April and then got it again the following January. That means natural immunity didn't work for me either. I understand Biden just had this happen as well. Since neither infection came close to putting me in the hospital (I worked throughout the first case I had) then the question becomes: Are the risks worth the potential gains by getting vaccinated anymore, or getting boosters? I'd say "no." I am done with covid vaccines.
                      That's certainly up to you. I'd just point out that it would be a mistake to assume that because previous infections were not serious, that future infections won't be serious either.

                      https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022...s-health-risks

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        You mean like how the left changed the word "mother" to "birthing person" in order to deal with people who don't understand what "mother" means? You mean like that"
                        No, not at all like that.

                        I don't think that word means what you think it means.

                        https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pu...t-is-immunity/

                        Immunity refers to the body’s ability to prevent the invasion of pathogens. Pathogens are foreign disease-causing substances, such as bacteria and viruses, and people are exposed to them every day. Antigens are attached to the surface of pathogens and stimulate an immune response in the body. An immune response is the body’s defense system to fight against antigens and protect the body.
                        The "body's ability to prevent the invasion of pathogens" is never absolute. There are different degrees of immunity, and the covid-19 vaccines provide some immunity, because they "stimulate an immune response in the body."

                        Just because you've drunk the covid koolaid doesn't mean that I have to.
                        You certainly don't have to be rational if you don't want to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Does the immune system need a different antibody for each strain of coronavirus(then just vaccinate for the most dangerous strains and let the immune ssystem handle omicron)? How else could people get sick with something twice? Kinda like how the flu mutates so you can get it multiple times and they might guess wrong on the variant to make a vaccine for? Why are some pathogens easier to vaccinate against than others? What is up with respiratory viruses mutating so fast anyway?!
                          Not all of them do. That's one of the things about the Chicom Bug that surprised the know-it-alls. It was *supposed* to be slow to mutate. Dr. Campbell talked about that on one of his recent videos.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ok, jab-o-philes, proceed with your debunkification:

                            Florida tells young men to avoid mRNA Covid shots --

                            State data show that the risk of cardiac death doubles after vaccination for men under 40

                            ...

                            Florida’s Surgeon General, Dr. Joseph Ladopo, yesterday warned men aged 18-39 not to take Covid vaccines.

                            The warning is based on an analysis of data from inside Florida showing a sharply higher risk of cardiac death in young men in the 28 days following the shots. Men under 40 had a 84 percent increased risk of death following vaccination with an mRNA shot.

                            The analysis also found that people who received non-mRNA vaccinations - generally meaning the Johnson & Johnson DNA/AAV vaccine - had a lower risk of cardiac death after the shots. Only the mRNA jabs were associated with more cardiac deaths.


                            No, the vaccines never worked all that well against severe Covid --

                            Also, they nearly DOUBLED the risk of coronavirus hospitalizations after the first dose; the figures come from huge and (until now) unnoticed British study

                            ...

                            But a peer-reviewed British study covering 9.1 million people and almost 600,000 Covid infections in 2021 shows vaccine advocates badly overstated the effectiveness of the shots even last year, at the peak of their effectiveness.

                            By mid-2021, fully vaccinated people had a higher risk of being infected with Covid, the study shows. They had only about 65 percent protection against hospitalization and death - after accounting for age, sex, and other risk factors.

                            Sixty-five percent protection is still better than nothing, of course. But it is far below the claims Murthy and others made - and continue to make.

                            Further, the period the researchers examined represented the peak of vaccine protection, which declined over time and declined further with the Omicron variant, which evades vaccine-generated antibodies within months.

                            And the sixty-five percent figure likely substantially overstates the actual protection from the shots, because of an epidemiological phenomenon called “healthy vaccine user bias.”

                            Put simply, physicians often withhold shots from people who are extremely frail or near death. They fear that vaccine side effects might kill those patients and that the vaccines will be pointless in any case.


                            The number you'll never see -- Why won't researchers report on all-cause mortality in the mRNA vaccinated? (*partially* paywalled)

                            Despite aggressive counting rules, not even 1 percent of deaths worldwide are now attributed to Covid. And even those deaths nearly all occur in the old and very seriously ill.

                            Meanwhile, overall deaths - including in younger people - have spiked in 2022 in many countries that relied heavily on the mRNA vaccines.



                            The first real evidence mRNA shots RAISE the risk of Covid hospitalization and death over time -- A big Swedish study offers fragmentary but suggestive data

                            On Sep. 20, using data covering 9 million people, Swedish researchers published a paper showing mRNA jabs may increase the risk of Omicron infection after three months.

                            That finding received attention. But an even more intriguing nugget in the paper has so far gone unnoticed.

                            Based on one statistical analysis vaccinated people had a HIGHER risk of death or hospitalization from Covid roughly a year after receiving their second dose. The charts — b and d below — show that vaccine protection against death and hospitalization begins to decline slowly after about five months and then plunges about nine months.

                            ...

                            This data provides real-world evidence of possible vaccine-caused “antibody dependent enhancement.” In ADE, vaccines cause our immune systems to produce antibodies that help a virus or other pathogen to attack us.

                            Still, the finding should not be viewed as definitive. It is based on relatively few deaths in the later time periods, which is why the confidence intervals (the dashed lines around the blue line) widen hugely after 40 weeks.

                            When the researchers used a different statistical method known as standard polynomial regression to analyze the data, they found the vaccines remained moderately effective against hospitalizations and death. In fact, protection actually appeared to increase slightly around a year - a trend that is counterintuitive at best.


                            mRNA vs. "traditional" jabs --

                            For the last two years, the world has run a natural experiment on how well different types of Covid vaccines work.

                            The United States and other wealthy countries relied almost exclusively on mRNA jabs. Those shots were largely unavailable in 2021 to poor and middle-income countries. They represent only about one-quarter of the nearly 13 billion doses administered worldwide.

                            Instead, poorer nations relied mainly on Chinese and Indian vaccines that use older “inactivated virus” technology. Essentially, those shots work by exposing people to Sars-Cov-2 itself - though the virus particles or “virions” have been chemically damaged so they cannot replicate.

                            Throughout 2021, American public health officials insisted inactivated virus vaccines were far less effective than the Pfizer and Moderna shots.

                            This attitude extended to public policy. In June 2021, the Food and Drug Administration refused to allow use of an Indian vaccine in the United States. Americans facing vaccine mandates generally could not use Chinese or Indian vaccines to meet them.

                            ...

                            Yet the countries that did not use the mRNA shots have suffered far less from Covid this year than those that did.

                            India provides a particularly stark example. Three major waves of Covid hit India.

                            The second, and largest, occurred in spring 2021, as India’s mass vaccination campaign was only beginning. The Indian government reported that hundreds of thousands of Indians died from Covid. But the true number was likely larger and will never be known for sure.

                            Infections and deaths then plunged until early 2022, when Omicron caused infections to soar nearly to their 2021 peak. But deaths in this brief third wave remained much lower, rarely topping 1,000 daily, compared to their May 2021 peak of 4,000.

                            So is the overall shape of the epidemic in India. It has three easily definable waves with sharp peaks, ending with a rapid decline that marks a clear end to the epidemic as herd immunity is reached and the virus disappears, as least as a serious health risk.

                            Does that pattern sound vaguely familiar?

                            It should.

                            What's striking about the curves in countries that did NOT use the mRNAs is how much they look like earlier epidemics - a couple of big seasonal peaks and then a return to normality as the virus learns to live with us and vice-versa.

                            ...

                            But the countries that used mRNA (and to a lesser extent the DNA/AAV) vaccines show a different pattern of illness. They had a very short period of few deaths and in infections in the months after most adults received their initial two-dose regimen, but the good news did not last.

                            From summer 2021 through spring 2022, the highly mRNA vaccinated countries suffered through repeated waves of infections and deaths that booster campaigns slowed but did not stop.

                            ...

                            Overall, though, Covid deaths have trended sharply down worldwide this year, led by countries that did not use the mRNA vaccines (see part 1 of this piece). Now, finally, coronavirus deaths in the mRNA countries are following.

                            Why?

                            We know what the answer isn’t. It isn’t booster mRNA shots. People have rejected those, not just in the United States, but all over the world.


                            Cheers!
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                              Well, keeping it straight to the point, even though COVID-19 is ''over'' in many countries throughout the world, there are several questions that still pop up from time to time. So, I decided to create a thread where we can attempt to debunk anti-vaxx claims (concerning all vaccines but ESPECIALLY the ones against COVID-19). So, I myself will start. My own father does not believe in COVID-19 vaccines, and took one shot only (so not even ''fully'' vaccinated). He claims that the vaccine(s) don't work, since the Pzifer CEO got COVID-19 twice. I realize some people are immune (pun intended) to rationality, but what can I say against his claim?

                              Anyone can chime in...
                              Tell him the Pfizer CEO (i) believes in taking his own vaccine - and if anyone should know about its effectiveness, he should; and (ii) is still alive, having not died of COVID, unlike 6 million other people.

                              As for the pandemic being over, COVID is still killing more than 1000 people per day, including more than 300 Americans.
                              Last edited by Roy; 10-10-2022, 05:35 AM.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                              Mountain Man on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by rogue06, 01-28-2023, 10:53 AM
                              0 responses
                              5 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by tabibito, 01-18-2023, 09:26 AM
                              17 responses
                              69 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by rogue06, 01-13-2023, 11:27 AM
                              11 responses
                              67 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by shunyadragon, 01-09-2023, 12:13 PM
                              2 responses
                              15 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by rogue06, 01-06-2023, 10:19 AM
                              0 responses
                              18 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Working...
                              X