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Günter Bechly issues a challenge

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    Competition. Changes that move them towards a particular niche aren't as likely to be advantageous if there is already a species in that niche.
    They could out-compete the species in that niche, though, re all the invasive plants and animals that plague Australia and other countries.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      Hawaiian silverswords.
      Ferrets and sea otters.
      Humans and chimps.
      New body plans, though?

      1. He is comparing a period of post-mass-extinction radiation, when there were ecological niches that had been emptied and were being refilled, with a period millions of years later.
      Again I ask why the processes that filled niches are not in operation today?

      2. He has no explicit criteria, only his subjective opinion, and so can make up excuses for dismissing any response (e.g. plants don't count).
      He gave a specific example, though, with Basilosaurus.

      Bechly's challenge was met less than a day after it was issued...
      How so?

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        They could out-compete the species in that niche, though, re all the invasive plants and animals that plague Australia and other countries.
        If they can out-compete other species without a new body plan, there wouldn't seem to be much pressure to adopt a new body plan.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post

          If they can out-compete other species without a new body plan, there wouldn't seem to be much pressure to adopt a new body plan.
          Often the invasive organism isn't out-competing anything at all but rather acting as an apex predator, not exterminating their competition but their prey

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post
            If they can out-compete other species without a new body plan, there wouldn't seem to be much pressure to adopt a new body plan.
            There is no room for improvement in any creature, then, apart from an open niche?

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              There is no room for improvement in any creature, then, apart from an open niche?
              I didn't say that.

              It's just that an open niche likely removes some of the constraints that might limit a change in body plans.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                There is no room for improvement in any creature, then, apart from an open niche?

                Blessings,
                Lee
                No. It just provides the fastest, surest means.

                Think of it sort of like having a job in a big company. Promotions are likely quicker after a bunch of people quit / retired / were fired, but that is hardly the only way to get promoted.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  It's just that an open niche likely removes some of the constraints that might limit a change in body plans.
                  Originally posted by rogue06
                  No. It just provides the fastest, surest means.
                  All right, then, so why don't we see such changes in living species? Come to think of it, why don't we see such changes in species that became geographically separated, or that arrived on a distant island? Open niches were all around them, in many instances.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Bechly has responded to posters at Peaceful Science, who claimed to have found examples that meet Bechly's challenge.

                    Source: Evolution News

                    My judgment that these plants do not have very different body plans, in spite of their often strikingly different growth forms, is also supported by the fact that they still frequently hybridize without sterility (Carr & Kyhos 1981, 1986; Carr 1985, 1995; Baldwin et al. 1990; Baldwin 2006). I can only repeat myself: organisms with different body plans cannot successfully interbreed. It is a common Darwinian dogma that new body plans correlate with significant genetic changes in early development (John & Miklos 1988: 309; Van Valen 1988; Thomson 1992: 111; Arthur 1997: 14+21; Kalinka & Tomancak 2012; Willmore 2012; Meyer 2013), which arguably would prevent any hybridization.

                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      All right, then, so why don't we see such changes in living species? Come to think of it, why don't we see such changes in species that became geographically separated, or that arrived on a distant island? Open niches were all around them, in many instances.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      We do see changes in such organisms (look up ring species for instance), as they evolve into different species (speciation -- a form of macroevolution which is defined as evolutionary change at or above the species level). We observe it taking place in before our very eyes in both the lab and in nature.

                      Now, if your asking for changes on the level of new body plans, then you need to keep in mind that even under optimal conditions, such as during the so-called "Cambrian Explosion," those sort of changes don't take place over decades or even centuries -- something that we can see taking place before us.

                      But you already knew that the "Cambrian Explosion" took place over tens of millions of years, so why this nonsense now?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        All right, then, so why don't we see such changes in living species? Come to think of it, why don't we see such changes in species that became geographically separated, or that arrived on a distant island? Open niches were all around them, in many instances.
                        Can you point to any niches that have been open for five to ten million years? Niches where an existing species would do a lot better with a significantly different body plan?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Now, if your asking for changes on the level of new body plans, then you need to keep in mind that even under optimal conditions, such as during the so-called "Cambrian Explosion," those sort of changes don't take place over decades or even centuries -- something that we can see taking place before us.
                          Please re-read the opening post, no one is asking for changes in body plan to take place over decades or centuries.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                            Can you point to any niches that have been open for five to ten million years? Niches where an existing species would do a lot better with a significantly different body plan?
                            The first apex predator to arrive in Hawaii, such as the pueo owl. And your expectation is that new body plans could arrive in 5-10 million years, where they fill an open niche. But we don't see this for living species, which exist now, and diverged from each other in such timeframes.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              The first apex predator to arrive in Hawaii, such as the pueo owl.
                              You know it's only been there a few thousand years, right?

                              And your expectation is that new body plans could arrive in 5-10 million years, where they fill an open niche.
                              No, my expectation is that an open niche is required for the generation of a new body plan, but not necessarily sufficient. (As far as I can tell, the only way to identify a niche is to point to a species that fills that niche, or used to fill it.)

                              But we don't see this for living species, which exist now, and diverged from each other in such timeframes.
                              On what basis would we expect to see this?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                                You know it's only been there a few thousand years, right?
                                That's fine, I meant the first apex predator.

                                On what basis would we expect to see this?
                                This gets back to the opening post, and Bechly's challenge that we should see processes in operation with species we see now, that were putatively in operation during the times of the fossil record.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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