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Günter Bechly issues a challenge

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  • #61
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    And are you the same person as Roy over at Peaceful Science? You have the same avatar picture, even.
    You're an Intelligent Design defender. Use ID theory.

    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      I could have stated that better, "let's say what the evolutionists themselves say"...

      Blessings,
      Lee
      So you think he disagrees with Pakicetus have a "roughly similar" body plan as Pakicetidae?

      You need to think your responses through.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        We do. Hawaiian silverswords are an example of a living species radiating after arriving on a distant island.
        If you use Hawaii, then the Honeycreeper makes for a good example. From a single ancestor, they evolved from a rosefinch-like bird some 5.7 to 7.2 mya into more than 50 honeycreeper species spanning an incredible variety of bill shapes and feeding behaviors.

        honeycreepers.jpg
        From a single ancestor species they adapted to exploit different niches, evolving into nectar sippers, seed eaters,
        tree bark foragers, etc. -- as well as several bill shapes not found in any other birds anywhere else.

        They are different enough from other Honeycreepers that it wasn't until the advent of molecular phylogenetic techniques that they were able to establish the connection.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Is this guy totally unaware
          Having read this thread, I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes".

          If you're going to issue a challenge like this, you have to provide a clear definition of "body plan" and an objective way of measuring it. Otherwise, any potential counter example can be subject to hand waving, as someone else had suggested. Without those, this is just a pseudoscientific bit of trolling.
          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            Having read this thread, I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes".

            If you're going to issue a challenge like this, you have to provide a clear definition of "body plan" and an objective way of measuring it. Otherwise, any potential counter example can be subject to hand waving, as someone else had suggested. Without those, this is just a pseudoscientific bit of trolling.
            Nice seeing you around these parts again.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Nice seeing you around these parts again.
              Real life, most notably the job that pays the bills, got extremely intrusive for a while. And then I took a vacation to recover and barely opened my laptop.
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                If you use Hawaii, then the Honeycreeper makes for a good example. From a single ancestor, they evolved from a rosefinch-like bird some 5.7 to 7.2 mya into more than 50 honeycreeper species spanning an incredible variety of bill shapes and feeding behaviors.

                honeycreepers.jpg
                From a single ancestor species they adapted to exploit different niches, evolving into nectar sippers, seed eaters,
                tree bark foragers, etc. -- as well as several bill shapes not found in any other birds anywhere else.

                They are different enough from other Honeycreepers that it wasn't until the advent of molecular phylogenetic techniques that they were able to establish the connection.
                An excellent example. The one bottom left looks more like a flycatcher than a nectar feeder.

                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  An excellent example. The one bottom left looks more like a flycatcher than a nectar feeder.
                  I would have gone for the reddish one above that.

                  NEVILLE1.jpg

                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    We do. Hawaiian silverswords are an example of a living species radiating after arriving on a distant island.
                    And Bechly has responded to this claim.

                    Source: Evolution News

                    A more important point is the fact that the differences among the species of Hawaiian Silverswords are all related to different growth forms and allometric shifts of already existing structures. Even though the differences appear superficially striking, they do not involve any novel body plans (i.e., no new proteins, new tissues, or new organs). Therefore, the radiation of Hawaiian Silverswords is not comparable to major body plan transitions such as from “worm” to trilobite, from terrestrial quadruped to marine whale, or from hair-like dino-fuzz to pennaceous feathers, etc. If the different growth forms of Hawaiian Silverswords really represented different body plans, they would not have been classified in the same family and subfamily as their continental tarweed relatives, and, in the case of Dubautia, even within the same genus, at least not prior to the cladistic revolution in the 1970s when typological thinking still prevailed in biological systematics.

                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Originally posted by Roy
                    Bechly is demanding a new body plan when his own example doesn't include one.
                    But see above, where Bechly repeats his example, and expands on it.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      They are different enough from other Honeycreepers that it wasn't until the advent of molecular phylogenetic techniques that they were able to establish the connection.
                      But I think "new body plan" implies more than just a new bill shape. "Worm to trilobite" is along the lines of what Bechly is thinking.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        But I think "new body plan" implies more than just a new bill shape. "Worm to trilobite" is along the lines of what Bechly is thinking.
                        If that's what he's thinking, then he's an idiot.

                        New body plans are the product of many, many individual changes. If we're looking for something like that happening now, then we'd just see a small number of changes that wouldn't obviously be part of a transition towards anything in particular.

                        But again, if he actually wanted an answer, he'd define the measure he wants to see. Instead, he's just repeating "new body plans" without defining now to identify one. So, clearly, he's not interested in getting an answer.
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          But I think "new body plan" implies more than just a new bill shape. "Worm to trilobite" is along the lines of what Bechly is thinking.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          From your reply it is clear that what Bechly is referring to isn't body plans as much as wanting a new phyla to appear. I suspect he chooses to use the term body plan, which doesn't appear to have a rigorous scientific definition, rather than phyla, because if he said the latter, a much larger share of his readers would recognize that he's talking out of his anus.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            But I think "new body plan" implies more than just a new bill shape. "Worm to trilobite" is along the lines of what Bechly is thinking.
                            Pakicetus to Basilosaurus is not along the lines of worm to trilobite. So if that's what Bechly is thinking, he's once again failing his own challenge.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              Pakicetus to Basilosaurus is not along the lines of worm to trilobite. So if that's what Bechly is thinking, he's once again failing his own challenge.
                              It's become pretty obvious that Bechly's "challenge" is of the same type as those that Kent Hovind used to issue -- a complete fraud.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                It's become pretty obvious that Bechly's "challenge" is of the same type as those that Kent Hovind used to issue -- a complete fraud.
                                Assuming this wasn't just a complete troll (something I'm far from convinced of), it's really just an amazing indication of an inability to think. I'm sure Bechly on some level can regurgitate "evolution is gradual", but he clearly hasn't internalized that in any way. If you take Lee's "worm to trilobite" example, gradually would mean that it proceeded through multiple steps: a worm with some specialized segments, a worm with specialized segments and a bit of armor, a worm with specialized segments a bit of armor and a pair of appendages, etc. If we were to witness something like that in the present, all we'd note is an odd looking worm that's part of a continuum of related worms. It's only millions of years later that the significance of those oddities become apparent.

                                If Lee or Bechly thought the implications of gradualism at all, they'd realize that, and then realize that this is a really stupid argument to be making.

                                Of course, Bechly may realize this, and make the argument anyway, simply because they know that people who want to believe evolution has problems will cheer any argument, regardless of its quality (or, in this case, complete absence of quality).
                                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                                Comment

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