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Günter Bechly issues a challenge

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That's fine, I meant the first apex predator.
    Well, how do you know it didn't acquire a new body plan?

    This gets back to the opening post, and Bechly's challenge that we should see processes in operation with species we see now, that were putatively in operation during the times of the fossil record.
    But there is no reason to expect those processes to have the same effect now that the world is fully populated as they had when it wasn't.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post
      Well, how do you know it didn't acquire a new body plan?
      Bechly's challenge is to demonstrate one species that did!

      But there is no reason to expect those processes to have the same effect now that the world is fully populated as they had when it wasn't.
      But I pointed out to you times and places where there were open niches.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Bechly's challenge is to demonstrate one species that did!
        We haven't seen that Bechly's challenge makes any sense.

        But I pointed out to you times and places where there were open niches.
        No, I don't believe you did.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          We haven't seen that Bechly's challenge makes any sense.
          But Peaceful Science responded with proposed counterexamples, it made sense to them.

          No, I don't believe you did.
          The first apex predator to arrive in Hawaii, for instance.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            The first apex predator to arrive in Hawaii, for instance.
            You didn't give a time, nor a species.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Stoic View Post
              You didn't give a time, nor a species.
              No, not exactly, but I think my point was clear. And I think maybe it's time to stop here, since no one has yet met Bechly's challenge.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                No, not exactly, but I think my point was clear. And I think maybe it's time to stop here, since no one has yet met Bechly's challenge.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Bschly did not make a challenge based on science,
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  But Peaceful Science responded with proposed counterexamples, it made sense to them.


                  The first apex predator to arrive in Hawaii, for instance.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Who, or what is "Peaceful Science"?

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Who, or what is "Peaceful Science"?
                    Peaceful Science is a website devoted to Theistic Evolution, headed by Joshua Swamidass. They have a forum where issues are discussed.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Bechly has responded to posters at Peaceful Science, who claimed to have found examples that meet Bechly's challenge.

                      Source: Evolution News

                      My judgment that these plants do not have very different body plans, in spite of their often strikingly different growth forms, is also supported by the fact that they still frequently hybridize without sterility (Carr & Kyhos 1981, 1986; Carr 1985, 1995; Baldwin et al. 1990; Baldwin 2006). I can only repeat myself: organisms with different body plans cannot successfully interbreed. It is a common Darwinian dogma that new body plans correlate with significant genetic changes in early development (John & Miklos 1988: 309; Van Valen 1988; Thomson 1992: 111; Arthur 1997: 14+21; Kalinka & Tomancak 2012; Willmore 2012; Meyer 2013), which arguably would prevent any hybridization.

                      Source

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      Yes, he did.

                      Unfortunately for Bechly, he failed badly.

                      Major problems with his response include
                      (i) Not reading the counterexample suggested. He replied as if the counterexample was land otters (Lutra) when it was actually sea otters (Enhydra)
                      (ii) Misrepresenting his sources. Bechly wrote
                      According to TimeTree.org , otters (genus Lutra ) and ferrets (genus Mustela ) diverged an estimated 17.5 million years ago.

                      But TimeTree.org gives the time since divergence as much less than that:
                      enhydra vs mustela divergence time.jpg
                      so Bechly has opened himself up to the three-step refutation process that you should be so familiar with. It's inexcusable.

                      Subsequent discussion at PS uncovered that Bechly's claimed time period for the evolution of Basilosaurus was based not on the time gap between Basilosaurus and its common ancestor with Pakicetus, but the time gap between the dates of the Pakicetus and Basilosaurus fossils. He's effectively assuming that Basilosaurus evolved not just from Pakicetus, but from the Pakicetus specimens we've found rather than older ones. That's akin to claiming that because we still have lizards alive today, snakes must have evolved from lizards in zero years. It's totally bonkers.

                      So Bechly's response fails on multiple counts, and exposes (unnecessarily) the bogosity of his 'challenge'.

                      You won't understand any of this Dory, and if you did you wouldn't care, since you misrepresent sources just as badly as Bechly has done. And if you understood it and cared you wouldn't remember it.





                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        New body plans, though?
                        There are no new body plans. Pakicetus and Basilosaurus are both vertebrates. They have the same body plan.

                        Bechly's challenge is bogus.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                          Peaceful Science is a website devoted to Theistic Evolution, headed by Joshua Swamidass. They have a forum where issues are discussed.
                          And where Dory has just poked his head above the parapet, Sedgwickesquely.


                          Last edited by Roy; 05-13-2022, 05:02 AM.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            There are no new body plans. Pakicetus and Basilosaurus are both vertebrates. They have the same body plan.

                            Bechly's challenge is bogus.
                            That has been one of the things I was wondering about -- what Bechly meant by "body plan" considering that phylogenetically related animals effectively share the same one. Or that all mammals in general share the same structures that have evolved to adapt to different environments -- for instance:

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              And where Dory has just poked his head above the parapet, Sedgwickesquely.

                              I'm afraid that reference sailed well above my head.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                (i) Not reading the counterexample suggested. He replied as if the counterexample was land otters (Lutra) when it was actually sea otters (Enhydra)
                                Well, they're still more that 5-10 million years apart.

                                Subsequent discussion at PS uncovered that Bechly's claimed time period for the evolution of Basilosaurus was based not on the time gap between Basilosaurus and its common ancestor with Pakicetus, but the time gap between the dates of the Pakicetus and Basilosaurus fossils. He's effectively assuming that Basilosaurus evolved not just from Pakicetus, but from the Pakicetus specimens we've found rather than older ones. That's akin to claiming that because we still have lizards alive today, snakes must have evolved from lizards in zero years. It's totally bonkers.
                                To quote from the opening post: "To be clear, of course no evolutionist ever claimed that Pakicetus was the actual ancestor of Basilosaurus. It rather represented a side branch of the cetacean stem group. But what evolutionists definitely do imply is that the stem species was roughly similar in body plan to Raoellidae and Pakicetidae. Therefore, this challenge is absolutely valid and reasonable."

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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