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The Discontinuous Fossil Record Refutes Darwinian Gradualism

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  • #76
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    You actually don't realize that this has been precisely what you have been doing in this thread? Making a "bare argument by authority" while now claiming that you object to that?
    Have you not been reading this thread? I am defending Bechly's reasoning.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Well, the temperature seems to have been fairly stable:

      Source: Brittanica

      the global temperature of Cambrian times averaged 22 °C (72 °F). ... Climate studies suggest that Cambrian temperatures were the norm for most of the Phanerozoic Eon (the last 541 million years).

      Source

      © Copyright Original Source



      Though there were some ice ages, apparently, and several extinctions:

      Source: Wikipedia

      The sea levels fluctuated somewhat, suggesting there were "ice ages", associated with pulses of expansion and contraction of a south polar ice cap. ...

      About 515 million years ago, the number of species going extinct exceeded the number of new species appearing. Five million years later, the number of genera had dropped from an earlier peak of about 600 to just 450. ... 500 million years ago, oxygen levels fell dramatically in the oceans, leading to hypoxia, while the level of poisonous hydrogen sulfide simultaneously increased, causing another extinction. The later half of Cambrian was surprisingly barren and showed evidence of several rapid extinction events

      Source

      © Copyright Original Source


      But note that there seem to have been no radiation events comparable to the Cambrian explosion, which would indicate that selective pressures remained fairly stable, if change in selective pressure is part of radiations, which I believe you are arguing for.
      I'm suggesting that the selective pressures caused by other species will increase as the number of other species increases.


      Also from Wikipedia:

      Source: Wikipedia

      Also, the speciation rate in many groups was reduced to between a fifth and a third of previous levels.

      © Copyright Original Source

      So the speciation rate was much greater during the Cambrian explosion than later in the Cambrian period.

      Yet species longevity could still remain stable, since longevity does not depend on the speciation rate.
      But speciation rate would seem to be more important than species longevity when explaining the rapid diversification of the Cambrian explosion.

      I would appeal to Bechly's (and rogue06's confirmation) estimate of about 2.5 to 10 million years, as a long-term average.
      I would not assume, without further evidence, that the average over a 20-30 million year period is the same as the average over a 500+ million year period.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Well, that's the Darwinian gradualism that is refuted by the discontinuous fossil record.
        Only among people who know nothing about fossil formation.
        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Have you not been reading this thread? I am defending Bechly's reasoning.
          I've read the thread. You're basically repeating that he's right and, when we ask for evidence for his claims, you pointed to his publication record. Not anything he actually said, because he provides no evidence whatsoever, just to his credentials. That is the very definition of an argument from expertise.

          We see it.. The only reason you don't is because you don't want to accept its implications.

          Just as the only reason you accept his expertise and not mine is because you like what he says.
          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Have you not been reading this thread? I am defending Bechly's reasoning.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            By appealing to his credentials as reason enough that he is right?

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Well, the temperature seems to have been fairly stable:



              Though there were some ice ages, apparently, and several extinctions:
              picardfacepalmthumb.jpg

              Blissfully ignorant that he just demolished his first statement.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                But all I can do is make a best guess at to what Bechly means.
                Guesses do not count. The thread title reflects your assertions, which you have failed to defend and respond to the posts concerning the Corral Bluffs fossil site that trashes your entire argument.


                Are you saying that radiations like the Cambrian explosion were due to filling niches?

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Actually yes, and the evidence I presented concerning the Corral Bluffs site documents this beyond any reasonable doubt, and you have failed to respond. The changes in the environment is the driving force for evolution, and actually abiogenesis.

                The separate argument you presented concerning 'body plans' and phyla was responded to with a detailed description and reference, and you have not responded.

                Still waiting . . .
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-16-2021, 08:46 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Well, that's the Darwinian gradualism that is refuted by the discontinuous fossil record.
                  My first post conclusively demonstrated that is utter nonsense.




                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                    I'm suggesting that the selective pressures caused by other species will increase as the number of other species increases.
                    Within the same niche, yes.

                    So the speciation rate was much greater during the Cambrian explosion than later in the Cambrian period.
                    Yes...

                    But speciation rate would seem to be more important than species longevity when explaining the rapid diversification of the Cambrian explosion.
                    I agree, though I hold that the Cambrian explosion was too fast to be due solely to speciation.

                    I would not assume, without further evidence, that the average over a 20-30 million year period is the same as the average over a 500+ million year period.
                    Well, I'm not sure where to find further evidence, so we may have to agree to disagree.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                      Just as the only reason you accept his expertise and not mine is because you like what he says.
                      I like his argument! Such as this part, which no one has responded to:

                      Source: Bechly

                      When you have reached this point of mostly repetition, then you know that you have sampled enough to be sure that you have not missed much that is out there to find. ... In most groups of fossils, we have reached this point of demonstrable saturation, where we can be pretty confident that the distinct discontinuities that we find are data to be explained and not just sampling artifacts. There is another reason why we know this: If the gaps and discontinuities in the fossil record were just artifacts, they should more and more dissolve with our greatly increasing knowledge of the fossil record. But the opposite is the case. The more we know, the more acute these problems have become.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        I like his argument! Such as this part, which no one has responded to:

                        Source: Bechly

                        When you have reached this point of mostly repetition, then you know that you have sampled enough to be sure that you have not missed much that is out there to find. ... In most groups of fossils, we have reached this point of demonstrable saturation, where we can be pretty confident that the distinct discontinuities that we find are data to be explained and not just sampling artifacts. There is another reason why we know this: If the gaps and discontinuities in the fossil record were just artifacts, they should more and more dissolve with our greatly increasing knowledge of the fossil record. But the opposite is the case. The more we know, the more acute these problems have become.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        This remains an unbelievable bogus ID 'argument from ignorance,' because of the supposed lack of information at present therefore . . .

                        I demonstrated in my reference concerning the Corral Bluffs fossil site that for less than one million years after the Cretaceous extinction event there is continuous rapid diversification of species of plants and insects in a pattern of evolution responding to environmental change found throughout the history of life in how evolution responds to extinction events. NO distinct discontinuities.gaps in the strata at Corral Bluffs.

                        It still remains that you have failed to respond to how 'body plans' and phyla' are defined in the evolution of live from the Precambrian/ Cambrian Bechly and you apparently really are ignorant of the nature of 'body plans and the phyls' classification of life as referenced.

                        Still waiting . . .
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          I like his argument! Such as this part, which no one has responded to:

                          Source: Bechly

                          When you have reached this point of mostly repetition, then you know that you have sampled enough to be sure that you have not missed much that is out there to find. ... In most groups of fossils, we have reached this point of demonstrable saturation, where we can be pretty confident that the distinct discontinuities that we find are data to be explained and not just sampling artifacts. There is another reason why we know this: If the gaps and discontinuities in the fossil record were just artifacts, they should more and more dissolve with our greatly increasing knowledge of the fossil record. But the opposite is the case. The more we know, the more acute these problems have become.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Someone did respond to that. In any case, the claim is specious. We identified a new Cambrian fossil site just two years ago, and half the species in it were previously undescribed. That's not exactly what I'd call "mostly repetition", and the entire argument falls apart if the foundational contention is simply untrue.

                          But please, tell us again why this guy's published so we should trust what he says.

                          And this illustrates the point I was making: when it comes to an argument, you don't care at all about its accuracy. You accept it uncritically provided it tells you what you want to believe. Which is why you post so many horrifically bad arguments in here.
                          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                            I don't see where this post addresses saturation in the fossil record.

                            We identified a new Cambrian fossil site just two years ago, and half the species in it were previously undescribed. That's not exactly what I'd call "mostly repetition", and the entire argument falls apart if the foundational contention is simply untrue.
                            Well it appears that the new taxa are kinorhyncha, which is one new phylum in the fossil record. So not much to shout about.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              I don't see where this post addresses saturation in the fossil record.
                              And that illustrates the problem nicely.

                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Well it appears that the new taxa are kinorhyncha, which is one new phylum in the fossil record. So not much to shout about.
                              Sigh, from the abstract at the link you're pointing me to:
                              preliminary taxonomic diversity that suggests it could rival the Chengjiang and Burgess Shale biotas.
                              Again, you just really don't care, do you?
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                                Someone did respond to that. In any case, the claim is specious. We identified a new Cambrian fossil site just two years ago, and half the species in it were previously undescribed. That's not exactly what I'd call "mostly repetition", and the entire argument falls apart if the foundational contention is simply untrue.
                                And they are barely scratching the surface in two years. Even over a hundred years later they are still pulling surprising discoveries from the Burgess Shale, such as this from this past September: A giant nektobenthic radiodont from the Burgess Shale and the significance of hurdiid carapace diversity. Full paper available either there or HERE

                                Titanokorys gainesi was a giant compared to other creatures of the time at approximately 50 cm (19.6") in length and possessing rake-like appendages that appear to have been used to sift through silt and sand in search of prey.


                                Abstract:

                                Radiodonts, stem-group euarthropods that evolved during the Cambrian explosion, were among the largest and most diversified lower palaeozoic predators. These animals were widespread geographically, occupying a variety of ecological niches, from benthic foragers to nektonic suspension feeders and apex predators. Here, we describe the largest Cambrian hurdiid radiodont known so far, Titanokorys gainesi, gen. et sp. nov., from the Burgess Shale (Marble Canyon, Kootenay National Park, British Columbia). Estimated to reach half a metre in length, this new species bears a very large ovoid-shaped central carapace with distinct short posterolateral processes and an anterior spine. Geometric morphometric analyses highlight the high diversity of carapace shapes in hurdiids and show that Titanokorys bridges a morphological gap between forms with long and short carapaces. Carapace shape, however, is prone to homoplasy and shows no consistent relationship with trophic ecology, as demonstrated by new data, including a reappraisal of the poorly known Pahvantia. Despite distinct carapaces, Titanokorys shares similar rake-like appendages for sediment-sifting with Cambroraster, a smaller but much more abundant sympatric hurdiid from the Burgess Shale. The co-occurrence of these two species on the same bedding planes highlights potential competition for benthic resources and the high diversity of large predators sustained by Cambrian communities.


                                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                                But please, tell us again why this guy's published so we should trust what he says.

                                And this illustrates the point I was making: when it comes to an argument, you don't care at all about its accuracy. You accept it uncritically provided it tells you what you want to believe. Which is why you post so many horrifically bad arguments in here.
                                Invincible Ignorance shields him from reality

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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