Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Discontinuous Fossil Record Refutes Darwinian Gradualism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Bechly is talking about transitions to new body plans in 5 to 10 million years, such as in the Cambrian explosion. If this is indeed in the lifespan of an average species, then this is too short for Darwinian evolution.
    Based on what? What evidence tells us that this is too short for Darwinian evolution? None has been presented here.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Bechly is a published scientist, so his statements should be based on his knowledge.
      I'm also a published scientist, and have papers in far more prestigious journals. I say his statements are wrong.

      You're doing an argument from authority, using someone who doesn't have much in the way of authority.
      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post
        In order to refute Bechly's reasoning, someone has to precisely state his reasoning. Since he didn't do it, I'll give it a shot:

        1) The average longevity of a species is between 2.5-10 million years.

        2) The average longevity of a species is too short a time for the appearance of a new group of organisms with a new body plan, given Darwinian evolution.

        Therefore,

        3) Darwinian evolution can't explain a new group of organisms with a new body plan appearing within 5-10 million years.

        The weak link in Bechly's reasoning appears to be (2), for which he provides no argument or evidence.
        Since a new species will typically be similar to the previous one, a whole new body plan would be unexpected.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Radical transitions can occur within 5000 to 50000 years.
          New body plans? I would need some evidence.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            You're doing an argument from authority, using someone who doesn't have much in the way of authority.
            Bechly's competence was called into question, so I stated reasons to believe his opinion. But I am not just arguing from authority.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Bechly's competence was called into question, so I stated reasons to believe his opinion. But I am not just arguing from authority.
              No, that's not true. If you'd bother to go back to the original post, you'd see you were responding to someone who said Bechly made an unsupported assertion - there was nothing about his competence. You in fact are the one who started down a "trust him, he's published papers" path without any prompting.

              You don't even care about telling the truth when it's right there for everyone else here to see.
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                New body plans? I would need some evidence.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                What do you mean by "new body plan"? For instance, amphibians are tetrapods (vertebrates having four limbs or leg-like appendages) and so is pretty much every animal that evolved from them including reptiles, birds and mammals. So be more precise about your meaning.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                  No, that's not true. If you'd bother to go back to the original post, you'd see you were responding to someone who said Bechly made an unsupported assertion - there was nothing about his competence. You in fact are the one who started down a "trust him, he's published papers" path without any prompting.
                  I'm assuming Bechly's experience in the field would support his assertions.

                  Originally posted by rogue06
                  What do you mean by "new body plan"? For instance, amphibians are tetrapods (vertebrates having four limbs or leg-like appendages) and so is pretty much every animal that evolved from them including reptiles, birds and mammals. So be more precise about your meaning.
                  Well, based on Wikipedia's article on the Cambrian explosion, I would take Bechly's use of "body plan" to correspond roughly to animal phyla.

                  Source: Wikipedia

                  The Cambrian explosion, Cambrian radiation[1] or Cambrian diversification refers to an interval of time approximately 541 million years ago in the Cambrian Period when practically all major animal phyla started appearing in the fossil record.

                  ...

                  Collins AG, Valentine JW (2001). "Defining phyla: evolutionary pathways to metazoan body plans." Evol. Dev. 3: 432-442

                  Source

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    I'm assuming Bechly's experience in the field would support his assertions.
                    So you are in fact making an argument from authority, despite just denying it above?

                    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                      So you are in fact making an argument from authority, despite just denying it above?
                      I am not making a bald appeal to authority, I believe Bechly has a good argument, which I am seeking to defend.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        I am not making a bald appeal to authority, I believe Bechly has a good argument, which I am seeking to defend.
                        And you're defending it by appealing to his authority - not by providing any evidence whatsoever. Despite repeated requests that you identify supporting evidence. In fact, you can't supply evidence, because he provides absolutely none to back up many of his statements. So all that's available to you is to point out his credentials.

                        Again, I'm a published scientist as well. If you'd like, I'll even have someone here we both trust verify my publication record, which includes papers in Nature and PNAS. Why do you accept his authority but not mine?
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Since a new species will typically be similar to the previous one, a whole new body plan would be unexpected.
                          Once various species are well established, you would expect a new species to be similar to a previous one, because selection pressures would discourage major changes.

                          That wasn't the case during the Cambrian explosion.




                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            I'm assuming Bechly's experience in the field would support his assertions.


                            Well, based on Wikipedia's article on the Cambrian explosion, I would take Bechly's use of "body plan" to correspond roughly to animal phyla.

                            Source: Wikipedia

                            The Cambrian explosion, Cambrian radiation[1] or Cambrian diversification refers to an interval of time approximately 541 million years ago in the Cambrian Period when practically all major animal phyla started appearing in the fossil record.

                            ...

                            Collins AG, Valentine JW (2001). "Defining phyla: evolutionary pathways to metazoan body plans." Evol. Dev. 3: 432-442

                            Source

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Don't just guess. What does he mean? And not what you figure he might mean.

                            And when you are filling ecological or environmental niches, development (evolution) can be rapid.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              I am not making a bald appeal to authority, I believe Bechly has a good argument, which I am seeking to defend.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              may beour missing the point of my posts. There may be many related diverse overlapping species,subspecies and varieties involved with the process of the evolution where new species as one of a group of related species. It is not one species evolving into another in a stepwise linear process of 5 to 10 million year The increments..It is the environment change and nature that drives evolution and natural selection. Evolution is NOT a linear process.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2021, 09:25 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                may beour missing the point of my posts. There may be many related diverse overlapping species,subspecies and varieties involved with the process of the evolution where new species as one of a group of related species. It is not one species evolving into another in a stepwise linear process of 5 to 10 million year The increments..It is the environment change and nature that drives evolution and natural selection. Evolution is NOT a linear process.
                                You're trying to explain this to someone who can't understand that mutations can occur at the same time and aren't always sequential steps.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by rogue06, 07-02-2022, 02:49 PM
                                0 responses
                                16 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by shunyadragon, 06-26-2022, 08:49 PM
                                3 responses
                                20 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 06-25-2022, 08:37 PM
                                1 response
                                14 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by shunyadragon, 06-13-2022, 11:16 AM
                                0 responses
                                15 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 06-12-2022, 08:26 AM
                                11 responses
                                47 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X