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The Discontinuous Fossil Record Refutes Darwinian Gradualism

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Moreover, what does he mean by "new group." I'm not familiar with that particular taxonomic ranking.
    A "new body plan" is what he meant...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Based on what Bechly says just after this: "... a window of time of 5-10 million years is very abrupt indeed. Why is this so? Because the average longevity of an invertebrate or vertebrate species (not an individual organism) varies between 2.5-10 million years. This means that a transition that required 5-10 million years happened within the lifespan of a single species! This is much too short to allow for Darwinian evolution to explain the required changes."

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Dude, we see new species arising both in the lab and nature quite frequently. There is nothing odd about new species branching out and it certainly doesn't take 5 to 10 million years between each speciation event.

      This is utter nonsense.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        This is utter nonsense.
        It can be called that only if you are being extremely polite.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Dude, we see new species arising both in the lab and nature quite frequently. There is nothing odd about new species branching out and it certainly doesn't take 5 to 10 million years between each speciation event.
          But he's talking about longevity of species, not the time between speciation events. And are you saying 5-10 million years is plenty of time to develop a new body plan?

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But he's talking about longevity of species, not the time between speciation events. And are you saying 5-10 million years is plenty of time to develop a new body plan?

            Blessings,
            Lee
            It would depend on the situation. For instance, after every mass extinction events, the surviving creatures start filling any ecological niches left vacant. In 5-10 million years there can be an awful lot of adapting to those niches via selective pressures.

            Tell me Lee, does this seem like déjà vu all over again?

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              But he's talking about longevity of species, not the time between speciation events.
              First, speciarion DOES NOT take place in evolution in terms of events. Your question concerning the 'longevity of species' reflects a total lack of knowledge of evolution. Species, subspecies and varieties exist and evolve constantly over time in a dynamic process in response to changing environments and natural selection over time.



              And are you saying 5-10 million years is plenty of time to develop a new body plan?

              Blessings,
              Lee
              You have to be clear what you are referring to 'body plan.' The basic different body plans for all life on earth was establish in Precambrian-Cambrian time and is represented in the classification of the phyla of life science evolved. There have been no new body plans since. All primates have the same 'body plan.'

              Basic 'body plans' for life from a high school level source.

              Source: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-nmbiology2/chapter/body-plans/



              Biology for Non-Majors II

              Module 10: Features of the Animal Kingdom

              • Describe the various types of body plans that occur in animals

              At a very basic level of classification, true animals can be largely divided into three groups based on the type of symmetry of their body plan: radially symmetrical, bilaterally symmetrical, and asymmetrical. All types of symmetry are well suited to meet the unique demands of a particular animal’s lifestyle.



              Figure 1. The sponge is asymmetrical. (credit: modification of work by Andrew Turner)

              Asymmetry is a unique feature of Parazoa (Figure 1). These ‘beside animals’ are considered animals because they lack the ability to make their own food.

              Radial symmetry is the arrangement of body parts around a central axis, as is seen in a drinking glass or pie. Only a few animal groups display radial symmetry. It results in animals having top and bottom surfaces but no left and right sides, or front or back. The two halves of a radially symmetrical animal may be described as the side with a mouth or “oral side,” and the side without a mouth (the “aboral side”). This form of symmetry marks the body plans of animals in the phyla Ctenophora and Cnidaria, including jellyfish and adult sea anemones (Figure 2a and 2b). Radial symmetry equips these sea creatures (which may be sedentary or only capable of slow movement or floating) to experience the environment equally from all directions.



              Figure 2. The (a) jellyfish and (b) anemone are radially symmetrical. (credit a: modification of work by Robert Freiburger; credit b: modification of work by Samuel Chow)




              Figure 3. The butterfly is bilaterally symmetrical. (credit: modification of work by Cory Zanker)

              Bilateral symmetry involves the division of the animal through a sagittal plane, resulting in two mirror image, right and left halves, such as those of a butterfly (Figure 3), crab, or human body. Animals with bilateral symmetry have a “head” and “tail” (anterior vs. posterior), front and back (dorsal vs. ventral), and right and left sides (Figure 4). All true animals except those with radial symmetry are bilaterally symmetrical. The evolution of bilateral symmetry that allowed for the formation of anterior and posterior (head and tail) ends promoted a phenomenon called cephalization, which refers to the collection of an organized nervous system at the animal’s anterior end. In contrast to radial symmetry, which is best suited for stationary or limited-motion lifestyles, bilateral symmetry allows for streamlined and directional motion. In evolutionary terms, this simple form of symmetry promoted active mobility and increased sophistication of resource-seeking and predator-prey relationships.

              Animals in the phylum Echinodermata (such as sea stars, sand dollars, and sea urchins) display radial symmetry as adults, but their larval stages exhibit bilateral symmetry. This is termed secondary radial symmetry. They are believed to have evolved from bilaterally symmetrical animals; thus, they are classified as bilaterally symmetrical.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Again, again and again . . . . Please use reliable scientific sources, get some education concerning the sciences of evolution and use terminology properly.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-05-2021, 08:56 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Based on what Bechly says just after this: "... a window of time of 5-10 million years is very abrupt indeed. Why is this so? Because the average longevity of an invertebrate or vertebrate species (not an individual organism) varies between 2.5-10 million years. This means that a transition that required 5-10 million years happened within the lifespan of a single species! This is much too short to allow for Darwinian evolution to explain the required changes."
                Again, that's just a declaration. And I could declare it wrong without providing any evidence, and my argument would be exactly as well supported as his.

                Basically, rather than arguing from your own personal incredulity as you normally do, you're arguing from someone else's personal incredulity. It's no more compelling.
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  It would depend on the situation. For instance, after every mass extinction events, the surviving creatures start filling any ecological niches left vacant. In 5-10 million years there can be an awful lot of adapting to those niches via selective pressures.
                  But we're talking about averages, is the average species longevity what Bechly says?

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                    Again, that's just a declaration. And I could declare it wrong without providing any evidence, and my argument would be exactly as well supported as his.

                    Basically, rather than arguing from your own personal incredulity as you normally do, you're arguing from someone else's personal incredulity. It's no more compelling.
                    Bechly writes here: "When you have reached this point of mostly repetition, then you know that you have sampled enough to be sure that you have not missed much that is out there to find. ... In most groups of fossils, we have reached this point of demonstrable saturation,"

                    This is not personal incredulity, this is a specific claim about the fossil record.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Your question concerning the 'longevity of species' reflects a total lack of knowledge of evolution. Species, subspecies and varieties exist and evolve constantly over time in a dynamic process in response to changing environments and natural selection over time.
                      Source: encyclopedia.com

                      Species longevity: The persistence of species for long periods of time (e.g. species of Gastropoda and Bivalvia).

                      Source

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      So this is a well-defined concept in biology.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Source: encyclopedia.com

                        Species longevity: The persistence of species for long periods of time (e.g. species of Gastropoda and Bivalvia).

                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        So this is a well-defined concept in biology.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee

                        Groosely and dishonestly used by ID proponents based on a religious agenda. Unethical selective cations are not convincing.

                        Persisting for a long time? In evolution we are talking about evolution over a period of millions of yeras, and yes billions of years..
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Source: encyclopedia.com

                          Species longevity: The persistence of species for long periods of time (e.g. species of Gastropoda and Bivalvia).

                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          So this is a well-defined concept in biology.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee

                          The present 'objectively verifiable evidence' is that there is many related species, subspecies, and varieties living at the same time and continuously through time as 'they' evolve over time. The current evidence indicates that the length of time each species, subspecies and variety is variable depending on the evolution natural selective pressures from environmental change, the diversity of related species , subspecies is greatest in ideal environments like rain forests and coral reefs. It is often difficult to define how long one specific species began and ended, Some species may persist for hundreds of millions of years like microorganisms, and life in ideal coastal and reef environments.

                          Yes species nay persist for many millions of yers, but they may only exist for less thn a million years.

                          But we're talking about averages, is the average species longevity what Bechly says?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Based on the above averages are absolutely meaningless. The selective pressures and advantages of the xhanging or static environments determine the length of time a species, subspecies and varieties persist or simply go extinct
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-07-2021, 08:11 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28

                            Bechly pretty much falls flat on his face from the onset when he proclaims that we have more than enough fossil material to make any sweeping conclusion you want. In reality, even given the massive amount of material we have uncovered (especially since the 80s), we are still barely scratching the surface and any generalized claims are essentially tenuous.

                            IOW, the gaps and discontinuities in the fossil record exist because we still have very little. Nevertheless, enough to draw several conclusions, just not of the nature or scope that Bechly imagines. Think of a film of a man running a mile but over time only a few scraps of it remain. A hundred or so stills from various parts of the film. Even if we never saw bipedal locomotion before we'd still probably be able to piece it together enough to determine that's what it is. But those scraps would open up many more questions that couldn't be answered by the bits we have.

                            That is sort of the position we are in today.

                            And while more and more fossils are discovered (they recently found an Ankylosaurid in southern Chile with the equivalent of a serrated blade for a tail), we have nowhere near the ability to analyze all but a tiny portion of them. That's why we keep hearing stories about a major discovery being found in a museum stock room that had been setting there barely looked at for several decades.

                            And even with all the fossils we find only a miniscule fraction of organisms ever get fossilized. And some areas, like jungles, just are not good terrain to try to get fossils from, especially of very small creatures, some of who's bones can be a hair's breadth wide. It should be remembered that fossilization itself is an incredibly rare occurrence when you think of a planet loaded with life for hundreds of millions of years.

                            There are worms who's trails and burrows we find stretching back hundreds of millions of years that we never found a specimen of. Fossilization itself is an incredibly rare occurrence when you think of a planet packed with life for hundreds of millions of years. Reading Bechly, if he was right we should literally be under a crush of fossils and never existed in the first place.

                            To give y'all a better grasp on just how extraordinarily rare it is we can look at just the first stage and not even get into all of the geologic hurdles involved. From something I posted pre-Crash:

                            [...]

                            Almost a century before going extinct in 1914 the passenger pigeon were thought to have comprised somewhere between 25 and 40% of the total number of birds in all of North America and traveled in flocks numbering as many as 2 Billion strong with only the Rocky Mountain Locust flying in larger groups. A large nesting in Wisconsin was reported as covering 850 square miles, with the number of birds nesting there being estimated at 136,000,000. One flock documented in Canada back in 1866, stretched for a mile wide and 300 miles long and took 14 hours to fly by. Other reports state that on some occasions flights often continued from morning until night and lasted for several days.

                            Yet for creatures that existed in such vast numbers such a short time ago (and being one of the most abundant birds in the world) I challenge you to go out in the wild and find one of their skeletons lying around.

                            Now, considering the scarcity already in passenger pigeon bones there will be even far fewer that ever get fossilized, and even fewer still that ever could be detected. If they had lived a 1000 years ago or even a bit over 500 years ago rather than a century or so ago there might not be anything left for us to find and know they ever even existed much less that they were around a third of all birds in North America at one time.

                            Another example is the American bison (or "buffalo") which once roamed over about a third of the entire continent of North America though they especially flourished in the Great Plains regions. In the early 19th century there were an estimated 20 to 30 million bison living here. While not driven into extinction like the passenger pigeon, and being much larger (ranging between 6½ to 11½' long and weighing between 700 and 2200 lbs.) finding any of their remains is exceedingly rare.

                            The point being fossilization is a rare process because most components of formerly-living things tend to decompose quite quickly after death and the conditions under which fossilization takes place are quite rare. Even the skeleton of an animal as immense as an elephant can be reduced to splinters in a relatively short amount of time as illustrated in The End of the Game by Peter Beard.[1]

                            [...]





                            1. Go to HERE and click “to LOOK INSIDE” and scroll down to see two of a few of the astonishing photographs of this breakdown in action.


                            Amazon no longer offers the preview, but it depicts multiple photos looking down from a plane of an elephant that had just died. In very short order a creature of that size was picked clean and even it's enormous bones splintered and breaking apart under the hooves and feet of numerous other animals. This is one of the images from the series that has apparently been made into a print and sold in galleries (he was a famous photographer)





                            Finally, FWIU, the average species has a "lifespan" of somewhere between 1 and 10 million years. But as shuny indicates they don't live in isolation. You have numerous subspecies and the like to take into account. So if a species dies off there could still be a number of closely related subspecies still around and existing for a long time.
                            Last edited by rogue06; 12-08-2021, 08:31 AM.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              ... even given the massive amount of material we have uncovered (especially since the 80s), we are still barely scratching the surface and any generalized claims are essentially tenuous.
                              I think you just threw out punctuated equilibrium.

                              And even with all the fossils we find only a miniscule fraction of organisms ever get fossilized. And some areas, like jungles, just are not good terrain to try to get fossils from, especially of very small creatures, some of who's bones can be a hair's breadth wide. It should be remembered that fossilization itself is an incredibly rare occurrence when you think of a planet loaded with life for hundreds of millions of years.
                              Which makes polls be invalid, because they don't consult most everyone in the country.

                              Finally, FWIU, the average species has a "lifespan" of somewhere between 1 and 10 million years. But as shuny indicates they don't live in isolation. You have numerous subspecies and the like to take into account. So if a species dies off there could still be a number of closely related subspecies still around and existing for a long time.
                              Sure, but Bechly's point still stands, even then.

                              Source: Evolution News

                              ... the average longevity of an invertebrate or vertebrate species (not an individual organism) varies between 2.5-10 million years. This means that a transition that required 5-10 million years happened within the lifespan of a single species! This is much too short to allow for Darwinian evolution to explain the required changes.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                I think you just threw out punctuated equilibrium.
                                No,You do not understand 'punctuated equilibrium.'


                                Which makes polls be invalid, because they don't consult most everyone in the country.
                                Terrible lack of understanding of statistics and process of the nature of polls.


                                Sure, but Bechly's point still stands, even then.

                                Source: Evolution News

                                ... the average longevity of an invertebrate or vertebrate species (not an individual organism) varies between 2.5-10 million years. This means that a transition that required 5-10 million years happened within the lifespan of a single species! This is much too short to allow for Darwinian evolution to explain the required changes.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Bechly lacks scientific credibility, and again . . . invalid non-scientific source with a religious agenda.

                                As noted (, , , and not responded to) the fact that evolution takes place in many overlapping, constantly changing species over time of species, subspecies, and varieties, and NOT one species evolving into another.

                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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