Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

that's a lot of stars

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    I think, too often, we look at "intelligent life" as being able to think or act like us. Star Trek always showed some interesting possibilities of what "intelligent life" might look like, much different than us.
    According to evolution, it should. Intelligent life should be curious or adventurous because those traits develop into intelligence. Complacence and lacking interest would not develop into intelligence.

    So I would expect intelligent life to be reaching out and looking to communicate, and it is telling that we find no evidence in our general neighborhood, we detect no such attempts. It suggests no intelligent life preceded us within detection. We're likely the oldest.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ronson View Post

      According to evolution, it should. Intelligent life should be curious or adventurous because those traits develop into intelligence. Complacence and lacking interest would not develop into intelligence.

      So I would expect intelligent life to be reaching out and looking to communicate, and it is telling that we find no evidence in our general neighborhood, we detect no such attempts. It suggests no intelligent life preceded us within detection. We're likely the oldest.
      I'm not sure one can make pronouncements as to what intelligent life 'should be' based just on what we know about evolution right now. Whatever gives a species a survival advantage in their environment. On the Earth we have Turtles and Sharks and Bears and Lions. If the intelligence evolved in a hunting predator, I'd expect it to be far more aggressive than if it evolved in a more community oriented omnivore (like us) or herbivore (unless perhaps in some places plants are animate are aggressive). But I have wondered if what makes a species survive and thrive to the point they develop sentience and the capacity to invent and record their knowledge with limited power also can lead to its destruction with the massive power that technology can bring. That in our universe, the long term survival of an intelligent species is nearly 100% dependent upon its capacity to turn away from aggressive and paranoid behaviors.

      It could be not many make that turn and that most end up destroying themselves not too long after they harness the atom and the secrets of DNA and life and biology.
      My 'faith' designation is 'Christian'. But I do not want the label "Christian" leading to mockery of faith in Christ. Consequently, I apologize if words of mine written in this post or others reflect poorly on the what Faith in Christ means, or what Faith in Christ can in fact do in terms of bringing Grace, Mercy, and Love into the world.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

        I'm not sure one can make pronouncements as to what intelligent life 'should be' based just on what we know about evolution right now. Whatever gives a species a survival advantage in their environment. On the Earth we have Turtles and Sharks and Bears and Lions. If the intelligence evolved in a hunting predator, I'd expect it to be far more aggressive than if it evolved in a more community oriented omnivore (like us) or herbivore (unless perhaps in some places plants are animate are aggressive). But I have wondered if what makes a species survive and thrive to the point they develop sentience and the capacity to invent and record their knowledge with limited power also can lead to its destruction with the massive power that technology can bring. That in our universe, the long term survival of an intelligent species is nearly 100% dependent upon its capacity to turn away from aggressive and paranoid behaviors.

        It could be not many make that turn and that most end up destroying themselves not too long after they harness the atom and the secrets of DNA and life and biology.
        I can't remember the novel or author offhand (maybe Niven's Ringworld?) but the author noted that many of the most dangerous animals are herbivores like Cape Buffalo, Rhinos, Hippos, Elephants (more so when there were greater numbers) and the like.


        People are smart enough to avoid a cougar but often think nothing of walking up to a buffalo or moose for a closeup selfie -- often with tragic results. I mean everyone thinks how domesticated cows are but few would be stupid enough to climb into the ring with a male cow -- a bull.



        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I can't remember the novel or author offhand (maybe Niven's Ringworld?) but the author noted that many of the most dangerous animals are herbivores like Cape Buffalo, Rhinos, Hippos, Elephants (more so when there were greater numbers) and the like.


          People are smart enough to avoid a cougar but often think nothing of walking up to a buffalo or moose for a closeup selfie -- often with tragic results. I mean everyone thinks how domesticated cows are but few would be stupid enough to climb into the ring with a male cow -- a bull.

          Interesting comment. But it does add the the point it is hard to predict what sort of behavior could be 'expected' as part of the evolutionary process - either because of the sheer magnitude of what is possible, or just because we have limited imagination

          I think I remember what you are talking about, and I think it was Niven's comments about Pierson's Puppeteers, a race that was always considered cowardly but that in one particularly dangerous instance revealed that its turning hiding when afraid was to enable a very strong and deadly kick from its third leg. They do appear in ringworld but also in several of the known space books (and yes, I consulted google to help refresh my memory)

          The part I'm most interested in is the connection between self-terminating intelligence and aggressive or paranoid behaviors. Or perhaps theologically - is it necessary for a species to survive crossing into the sort of capacity for self destruction like we have done to accept, adopt, and practice the sort of behaviors and attitudes that Christ taught (not to be confused with the sorts of behaviors and attitudes we often rationalize as compatible with what Christ taught)
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-05-2021, 04:35 PM.
          My 'faith' designation is 'Christian'. But I do not want the label "Christian" leading to mockery of faith in Christ. Consequently, I apologize if words of mine written in this post or others reflect poorly on the what Faith in Christ means, or what Faith in Christ can in fact do in terms of bringing Grace, Mercy, and Love into the world.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            The part I'm most interested in is the connection between self-terminating intelligence and aggressive or paranoid behaviors. Or perhaps theologically - is it necessary for a species to survive crossing into the sort of capacity for self destruction like we have done to accept, adopt, and practice the sort of behaviors and attitudes that Christ taught (not to be confused with the sorts of behaviors and attitudes we often rationalize as compatible with what Christ taught)
            Tribalism may not be universal in social beings. Like the Borg, a race might just absorb potential enemies, so the tendency toward aggressive/paranoid self-terminating behavior isn't there.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

              I'm not sure one can make pronouncements as to what intelligent life 'should be' based just on what we know about evolution right now. Whatever gives a species a survival advantage in their environment. On the Earth we have Turtles and Sharks and Bears and Lions. If the intelligence evolved in a hunting predator, I'd expect it to be far more aggressive than if it evolved in a more community oriented omnivore (like us) or herbivore (unless perhaps in some places plants are animate are aggressive). But I have wondered if what makes a species survive and thrive to the point they develop sentience and the capacity to invent and record their knowledge with limited power also can lead to its destruction with the massive power that technology can bring. That in our universe, the long term survival of an intelligent species is nearly 100% dependent upon its capacity to turn away from aggressive and paranoid behaviors.

              It could be not many make that turn and that most end up destroying themselves not too long after they harness the atom and the secrets of DNA and life and biology.
              Even if nearby civilizations terminated themselves, one might think they left behind some evidence - like errant communications wandering around space. Which is why I don't think there is any older civilizations in our neighborhood. At the other end of the galaxy? Sure, but we'll never know.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                Even if nearby civilizations terminated themselves, one might think they left behind some evidence - like errant communications wandering around space. Which is why I don't think there is any older civilizations in our neighborhood. At the other end of the galaxy? Sure, but we'll never know.
                There are a bunch of caveats, but in terms of detecting other potential civilizations within a few hundred light years, AFAIK, we just are not there yet in terms of the sensitivity of the instruments required. Assuming they exist, they would have to be very advanced and capable of producing huge amounts of power to send out a signal we could 'hear'. Perhaps they could have detected us and sent out a focused and directed signal that would be powerful enough to detect? OTOH, a race that existed and terminated itself could be on such a disparate timeframe from us the signals are long gone past us, or again, just too far away for us to notice as the pass by. So even if intelligence evolves fairly often, unless they typically don't wipe themselves out and have endured long enough to be around when we are around, the chances of us knowing about them I would think are about 0.
                My 'faith' designation is 'Christian'. But I do not want the label "Christian" leading to mockery of faith in Christ. Consequently, I apologize if words of mine written in this post or others reflect poorly on the what Faith in Christ means, or what Faith in Christ can in fact do in terms of bringing Grace, Mercy, and Love into the world.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Interesting comment. But it does add the the point it is hard to predict what sort of behavior could be 'expected' as part of the evolutionary process - either because of the sheer magnitude of what is possible, or just because we have limited imagination

                  I think I remember what you are talking about, and I think it was Niven's comments about Pierson's Puppeteers, a race that was always considered cowardly but that in one particularly dangerous instance revealed that its turning hiding when afraid was to enable a very strong and deadly kick from its third leg. They do appear in ringworld but also in several of the known space books (and yes, I consulted google to help refresh my memory)

                  The part I'm most interested in is the connection between self-terminating intelligence and aggressive or paranoid behaviors. Or perhaps theologically - is it necessary for a species to survive crossing into the sort of capacity for self destruction like we have done to accept, adopt, and practice the sort of behaviors and attitudes that Christ taught (not to be confused with the sorts of behaviors and attitudes we often rationalize as compatible with what Christ taught)
                  IIRC, there was something about how many herbivores are very aggressive toward "trespassers" whereas with carnivores, they would let you walk right past them -- as long as they aren't hungry.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment

                  Related Threads

                  Collapse

                  Topics Statistics Last Post
                  Started by shunyadragon, 11-24-2021, 08:21 AM
                  2 responses
                  13 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post shunyadragon  
                  Started by lee_merrill, 11-16-2021, 09:11 PM
                  6 responses
                  45 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post lee_merrill  
                  Started by shunyadragon, 11-10-2021, 08:44 AM
                  8 responses
                  34 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post shunyadragon  
                  Started by Lariliss, 11-02-2021, 12:23 PM
                  2 responses
                  41 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post Lariliss  
                  Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2021, 04:22 PM
                  30 responses
                  188 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post TheLurch  
                  Working...
                  X