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Fossils of four legged whale found in Egypt

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  • Fossils of four legged whale found in Egypt

    Source: https://english.cctv.com/2021/09/13/ARTIsfmOGhBVEgtjsk4zRiG3210913.shtml




    Egypt's discovery of ancient 4-legged whale leap in paleontology: researchers

    Source:Xinhua 13-09-21 09:00 Updated BJT
    Font size:A+A-
    by Mahmoud Fouly

    MANSOURA, Egypt, Sept. 10 (Xinhua) -- Fragments of bones, including a fractured non-human large skull, mandibles, some isolated long crooked teeth, ribs and vertebrae, are placed in a rectangular open box in the Mansoura University Vertebrate Paleontology Centre (MUVP) in Dakahlia province, northeast of the Egyptian capital Cairo.



    These fossil bones, dating back to 43 million years ago, belong to an ancient amphibious four-legged whale. Excavated from rocks in the Fayum Depression of Egypt's Western Desert, the discovery is considered a scientific leap in paleontology and zoology, helping trace the story of the transition of early whales from land to sea, according to the researchers.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Source: https://english.cctv.com/2021/09/13/ARTIsfmOGhBVEgtjsk4zRiG3210913.shtml




    Egypt's discovery of ancient 4-legged whale leap in paleontology: researchers

    Source:Xinhua 13-09-21 09:00 Updated BJT
    Font size:A+A-
    by Mahmoud Fouly

    MANSOURA, Egypt, Sept. 10 (Xinhua) -- Fragments of bones, including a fractured non-human large skull, mandibles, some isolated long crooked teeth, ribs and vertebrae, are placed in a rectangular open box in the Mansoura University Vertebrate Paleontology Centre (MUVP) in Dakahlia province, northeast of the Egyptian capital Cairo.



    These fossil bones, dating back to 43 million years ago, belong to an ancient amphibious four-legged whale. Excavated from rocks in the Fayum Depression of Egypt's Western Desert, the discovery is considered a scientific leap in paleontology and zoology, helping trace the story of the transition of early whales from land to sea, according to the researchers.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Interesting that the source felt it necessary to point out that the whale fossils are non-human.

    The fossils were originally unearthed in Egypt's western desert in 2008, and they named the creature it came from Phiomicetus anubi, with the species name coming from the god Anubus (the head of whom supposedly resembles this amphibious whale ancestor's skull).

    The paper describing the discovery, A new protocetid whale offers clues to biogeography and feeding ecology in early cetacean evolution can be read by clicking the link. Here is the abstract:

    Abstract:

    Over about 10 million years, the ancestors of whales transformed from herbivorous, deer-like, terrestrial mammals into carnivorous and fully aquatic cetaceans. Protocetids are Eocene whales that represent a unique semiaquatic stage in that dramatic evolutionary transformation. Here, we report on a new medium-sized protocetid, Phiomicetus anubis gen. et sp. nov., consisting of a partial skeleton from the middle Eocene (Lutetian) of the Fayum Depression in Egypt. The new species differs from other protocetids in having large, elongated temporal fossae, anteriorly placed pterygoids, elongated parietals, an unfused mandibular symphysis that terminates at the level of P3, and a relatively enlarged I3. Unique features of the skull and mandible suggest a capacity for more efficient oral mechanical processing than the typical protocetid condition, thereby allowing for a strong raptorial feeding style. Phylogenetic analysis nests Phiomicetus within the paraphyletic Protocetidae, as the most basal protocetid known from Africa. Recovery of Phiomicetus from the same bed that yielded the remingtonocetid Rayanistes afer provides the first clear evidence for the co-occurrence of the basal cetacean families Remingtonocetidae and Protocetidae in Africa. The discovery of Phiomicetus further augments our understanding of the biogeography and feeding ecology of early whales.


    A couple images
    rspb20211368f01.jpg
    The holotype of Phiomicetus anubis, n. gen. et sp., MUVP 500. Skull in lateral (a) and dorsal (b) views; the mandibles and associated teeth in medial (c), lateral (d), and occlusal (e) views; (f) the fifth cervical vertebra in cranial view; (g) the sixth thoracic vertebra in cranial view; (h) the sixth left rib in cranial view; (i) shaft of a right rib in caudal view. Scale bar equals 5 cm



    rspb20211368f02.jpg
    Phylogenetic relationships and biogeography of Phiomicetus and other extinct cetaceans. ‘Allcompat’ consensus (majority-rule plus compatible groups)
    tree from the Bayesian tip-dating analysis of the 190-character matrix in MrBayes 3.2.5 with the implementation of the FBD prior. Numerical values
    to the left of nodes represent posterior probabilities (PPs) (×100). Icons to the right of taxon names reflect the geographic location of each fossil.




    When I first heard about this the news source gave the inaccurate impression that Phiomicetus anubi was closer to Pakicetus and Ambulocetus than it is.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Only they don't seem to know that it had four legs!

      Source: Evolution News

      Perhaps this organism had four legs. Perhaps it had flippers. Perhaps it was closely related to whales. Perhaps it has nothing to do with whales. No one really knows. The simple fact of the matter is that we know hardly anything about this creature because, again, so very little of it was found. Forcing this species into an evolutionary paradigm to fit preconceived ideas about cetacean evolution, and promulgating headlines about a “four-legged whale,” is beyond belief.

      Source

      © Copyright Original Source



      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Only they don't seem to know that it had four legs!

        Source: Evolution News

        Perhaps this organism had four legs. Perhaps it had flippers. Perhaps it was closely related to whales. Perhaps it has nothing to do with whales. No one really knows. The simple fact of the matter is that we know hardly anything about this creature because, again, so very little of it was found. Forcing this species into an evolutionary paradigm to fit preconceived ideas about cetacean evolution, and promulgating headlines about a “four-legged whale,” is beyond belief.

        Source

        © Copyright Original Source



        Blessings,
        Lee
        Non-scientific ID references with a religious agenda, are not reliable. What is needed is a background in paleontological comparative anatomy, which is lacking in your reference. 'Please cite scientific references that do not have a religious agenda.

        'Perhaps' is not the basis for a scientific hypothesis.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Only they don't seem to know that it had four legs!

          Source: Evolution News

          Perhaps this organism had four legs. Perhaps it had flippers. Perhaps it was closely related to whales. Perhaps it has nothing to do with whales. No one really knows. The simple fact of the matter is that we know hardly anything about this creature because, again, so very little of it was found. Forcing this species into an evolutionary paradigm to fit preconceived ideas about cetacean evolution, and promulgating headlines about a “four-legged whale,” is beyond belief.

          Source

          © Copyright Original Source



          Blessings,
          Lee
          Perhaps it had tentacles. Perhaps it had...

          Not a great way to base an objection.

          Still, given the limbs were not found I suppose it is possible that they could have been more seal-like but that just skips over the evidence that whatever the case it was amphibious. Not something you see today with whales.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Perhaps it had tentacles. Perhaps it had...

            Not a great way to base an objection.
            Well, the point is that they don't have evidence for legs, thus touting this as a four-legged whale is certainly premature, if not misleading.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Perhaps it had tentacles. Perhaps it had...

              Not a great way to base an objection.

              Still, given the limbs were not found I suppose it is possible that they could have been more seal-like but that just skips over the evidence that whatever the case it was amphibious. Not something you see today with whales.
              I was hoping for something concrete, but for once Lee is right - there isn't enough skeleton to make a definitive claim. It is possible I suppose that it is being cross correlated with other skeletons that have been found elsewhere, but it remains a stretch.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Perhaps it had tentacles. Perhaps it had...

                Not a great way to base an objection.

                Still, given the limbs were not found I suppose it is possible that they could have been more seal-like but that just skips over the evidence that whatever the case it was amphibious. Not something you see today with whales.
                You and I have similar beliefs in re to evolution but, I don't see how you could even make the distinction it's amphibious based on what was found.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                  You and I have similar beliefs in re to evolution but, I don't see how you could even make the distinction it's amphibious based on what was found.
                  The structure of the head indicates that it was primarily an air breather and the sediments it was found in (as well as its closest relatives) were, as the paper states, "recovered from the green shale of the Midawara Formation, indicating an even more deep-water setting." A primarily air-breathing mammal related to modern whales, the remains of which were found in deep water sediments.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    The structure of the head indicates that it was primarily an air breather and the sediments it was found in (as well as its closest relatives) were, as the paper states, "recovered from the green shale of the Midawara Formation, indicating an even more deep-water setting." A primarily air-breathing mammal related to modern whales, the remains of which were found in deep water sediments.
                    Good comment! This demonstrates that comparative anatomy of fossil evidence goes beyond the actual fossils themselves.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The structure of the head indicates that it was primarily an air breather and the sediments it was found in (as well as its closest relatives) were, as the paper states, "recovered from the green shale of the Midawara Formation, indicating an even more deep-water setting." A primarily air-breathing mammal related to modern whales, the remains of which were found in deep water sediments.
                      Whales are air breathers so, I'm still not seeing it. And where are the legs that make a four legged whale?
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        Whales are air breathers so, I'm still not seeing it. And where are the legs that make a four legged whale?
                        Your original objection was that you didn't see evidence for amphibiousness. Yet even without proper legs but more flipper-like limbs all you have to do is look around and you can see amphibious mammals such as seals, walrus and sea lions. So that is hardly an objection.

                        The reason they're assuming more leg-like limbs is none of the other whale ancestors from anywhere around this period had them and none had anything even like fins. While theoretically it is possible that one developed fins this early, that would have provided a significant advantage in the water over its kin and we should have seen them radiate out and become predominant in relatively short order (geologically speaking).

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                          Whales are air breathers so, I'm still not seeing it. And where are the legs that make a four legged whale?
                          A background in science,, comparative anatomy and paleobiology may help you 'see it.' If you lack that read the peer reviewed search and make an effort to understand.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Your original objection was that you didn't see evidence for amphibiousness. Yet even without proper legs but more flipper-like limbs all you have to do is look around and you can see amphibious mammals such as seals, walrus and sea lions. So that is hardly an objection.

                            The reason they're assuming more leg-like limbs is none of the other whale ancestors from anywhere around this period had them and none had anything even like fins. While theoretically it is possible that one developed fins this early, that would have provided a significant advantage in the water over its kin and we should have seen them radiate out and become predominant in relatively short order (geologically speaking).
                            I should clarify that the highlighted "them" is for flipper-like limbs.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment

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