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The five-year rechargeable battery

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Right, so things i learned:
    Hydrogen for cars doesn't make sense anymore. Battery prices are dropping and capacities are rising, and hydrogen is way too far behind the curve to catch up until hydrogen production gets really cheap.*

    Other areas of transport that are hard to decarbonize otherwise, like trains, could still end up running on hydrogen. But for the next decade or more, we'll need a price on carbon emissions for that to make economic sense. The pricing mechanism doesn't matter — could be cap and trade, could be a fee, could be a tax — as long as it matches the societal-level costs that those emissions inflict.

    Some industries, like fertilizer production, already use significant amounts of hydrogen. Swapping in carbon produced using renewable power would partly decarbonize these industries (facilities' energy use would still matter here). There are other industries, like steel production, that could switch to hydrogen from its current materials. Economically, renewable hydrogen production would soon be viable compared to current methods of producing hydrogen coupled with carbon capture and storage. Alternatively, a price on carbon would work here too.

    For power generation, hydrogen produced using renewables can smooth over variability in generation due to renewables, but its window is pretty narrow. It needs a price on carbon, and can't compete with batteries for short term (~3 hours or so) storage. On the plus side, there are now generators that can burn either hydrogen or natural gas on the market, so they can use hydrogen when it's cheap, and still cover shortfalls if it's not.

    Right now, we don't build a lot of hydrogen-producing hardware, so the market is small. But in response to China saying it's going carbon neutral by 2060, companies there are boosting production capacity dramatically. So hardware prices are less likely to be a major barrier to adoption over the coming decade.


    *interesting side story here: Toyota bet big on fuel cells and, despite its early lead with hybrids, hasn't done a lot of development of electric vehicles. So it's now in the awkward position of selling the most popular hybrid, but lobbying against tougher fuel efficiency standards because it'll depend on all its non-hybrid models until it can catch up.
    Interesting. Much appreciated. And kinda odd, because I've been seeing commercials touting the future of hydrogen in automobiles, and the only downside they mentioned was the scarcity of hydrogen refueling statings in vast markets.

    I'll watch again for the sponsor - must be somebody invested in hydrogen fuel cell technology.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Looking forward to it... I've been doing some reading up on it myself, but a number of the articles are "Why hydrogen engines won't work...." or something along those lines.
    Right, so things i learned:
    Hydrogen for cars doesn't make sense anymore. Battery prices are dropping and capacities are rising, and hydrogen is way too far behind the curve to catch up until hydrogen production gets really cheap.*

    Other areas of transport that are hard to decarbonize otherwise, like trains, could still end up running on hydrogen. But for the next decade or more, we'll need a price on carbon emissions for that to make economic sense. The pricing mechanism doesn't matter — could be cap and trade, could be a fee, could be a tax — as long as it matches the societal-level costs that those emissions inflict.

    Some industries, like fertilizer production, already use significant amounts of hydrogen. Swapping in carbon produced using renewable power would partly decarbonize these industries (facilities' energy use would still matter here). There are other industries, like steel production, that could switch to hydrogen from its current materials. Economically, renewable hydrogen production would soon be viable compared to current methods of producing hydrogen coupled with carbon capture and storage. Alternatively, a price on carbon would work here too.

    For power generation, hydrogen produced using renewables can smooth over variability in generation due to renewables, but its window is pretty narrow. It needs a price on carbon, and can't compete with batteries for short term (~3 hours or so) storage. On the plus side, there are now generators that can burn either hydrogen or natural gas on the market, so they can use hydrogen when it's cheap, and still cover shortfalls if it's not.

    Right now, we don't build a lot of hydrogen-producing hardware, so the market is small. But in response to China saying it's going carbon neutral by 2060, companies there are boosting production capacity dramatically. So hardware prices are less likely to be a major barrier to adoption over the coming decade.


    *interesting side story here: Toyota bet big on fuel cells and, despite its early lead with hybrids, hasn't done a lot of development of electric vehicles. So it's now in the awkward position of selling the most popular hybrid, but lobbying against tougher fuel efficiency standards because it'll depend on all its non-hybrid models until it can catch up.
    Last edited by TheLurch; 08-05-2021, 01:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Looking forward to it... I've been doing some reading up on it myself, but a number of the articles are "Why hydrogen engines won't work...." or something along those lines.
    But they produce water as waste! Pretty soon they would flood the world and we would end up living on rafts like in Water World!

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Amazingly, I just got a pre-release of a report on the economics of hydrogen. Remind me on Thursday when i'm allowed to talk about it if i forget to revisit this thread..
    Looking forward to it... I've been doing some reading up on it myself, but a number of the articles are "Why hydrogen engines won't work...." or something along those lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    What do you know about hydrogen engines? Any advances on those?
    Amazingly, I just got a pre-release of a report on the economics of hydrogen. Remind me on Thursday when i'm allowed to talk about it if i forget to revisit this thread..

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    What do you know about hydrogen engines? Any advances on those?
    All i know is that hydrogen production is featuring in more countries' plans. The UK and Netherlands are both integrating it with their offshore wind, and New Jersey's deal with offshore wind developers includes them constructing a pilot hydrogen production plant.

    I don't know whether that's because of some specific advance that's made it more viable, or whether it's a "we're building enough wind that we're going to have electricity to spare on very windy days" situation. It's on my very long list of "things i need to talk to an expert about".

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Wonder if that makes any difference with silicon. Silicon stores a lot more lithium per unit volume than graphite, and companies are gradually shifting to incorporating more of it into their batteries. (Its downside is that it expands a lot as the lithium is stored, and so can cause structural integrity problems, so we're not going to see pure lithium until that's solved.)
    What do you know about hydrogen engines? Any advances on those?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheLurch
    replied
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Courtesy of Japan. This would make electric cars more reasonable, especially.
    Wonder if that makes any difference with silicon. Silicon stores a lot more lithium per unit volume than graphite, and companies are gradually shifting to incorporating more of it into their batteries. (Its downside is that it expands a lot as the lithium is stored, and so can cause structural integrity problems, so we're not going to see pure lithium until that's solved.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    In the future Triple A will have charging trucks.
    Powered by diesel motors.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This does not solve the problem that the charging of the batteries has to come from available electrical grids.

    It's the range that's the bigger problem. When you run out of battery, can you walk to a power station and bring back a bucket of electricity?
    In the future Triple A will have charging trucks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    This does not solve the problem that the charging of the batteries has to come from available electrical grids.

    It's the range that's the bigger problem. When you run out of battery, can you walk to a power station and bring back a bucket of electricity?

    Leave a comment:


  • lee_merrill
    started a topic The five-year rechargeable battery

    The five-year rechargeable battery

    Courtesy of Japan. This would make electric cars more reasonable, especially.

    Source: PCMag

    One of the major limiting factors of rechargeable batteries today is how quickly their capacity can degrade. After just a year of regularly recharging a lithium-ion battery, it can't get close to its full capacity anymore. However, a new material holds the promise of changing the situation and allowing full capacity charges for five or more years.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee

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