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Chinese "Dragon Man" represent a new human species?

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  • Chinese "Dragon Man" represent a new human species?

    And now for the third and final part of this wholly unintended series on new discoveries regarding human evolution[1]. This concerns a large human skull found in China that has some saying it represents a new species.

    Source: Massive human head in Chinese well forces scientists to rethink evolution


    ‘Dragon man’ skull reveals new branch of family tree more closely related to modern humans than Neanderthals


    The discovery of a huge fossilised skull that was wrapped up and hidden in a Chinese well nearly 90 years ago has forced scientists to rewrite the story of human evolution.

    Analysis of the remains has revealed a new branch of the human family tree that points to a previously unknown sister group more closely related to modern humans than the Neanderthals.

    The extraordinary fossil has been named a new human species, Homo longi or “Dragon man”, by Chinese researchers, although other experts are more cautious about the designation.

    "I think this is one of the most important finds of the past 50 years," said Prof Chris Stringer, research leader at the Natural History Museum in London, who worked on the project. "It’s a wonderfully preserved fossil."

    The skull appears to have a remarkable backstory. According to the researchers, it was originally found in 1933 by Chinese labourers building a bridge over the Songhua River in Harbin, in China’s northernmost province, Heilongjiang, during the Japanese occupation. To keep the skull from falling into Japanese hands it was wrapped and hidden in an abandoned well, resurfacing only in 2018 after the man who hid it told his grandson about it shortly before he died.

    An international team led by Prof Qiang Ji at the Hebei Geo University in China drew on geochemical techniques to narrow down when the skull came to rest in Harbin, dating the bones to at least 146,000 years old. The skull has a unique combination of primitive and more modern features, with the face, in particular, more closely resembling Homo sapiens. One huge molar remains.

    The skull, which is 23cm long and more than 15cm wide, is substantially larger than a modern human’s and has ample room, at 1,420ml, for a modern human brain. Beneath the thick brow ridge, the face has large square eye sockets, but is delicate despite its size. "This guy had a huge head," said Stringer.

    The researchers believe the skull belonged to a male, about 50 years old, who would have been an impressive physical specimen. His wide, bulbous nose allowed him to breathe huge volumes of air, indicating a high-energy lifestyle, while sheer size would have helped him withstand the brutally cold winters in the region. "Homo longi is heavily built, very robust," said Prof Xijun Ni, a paleoanthropologist at Hebei. "It is hard to estimate the height, but the massive head should match a height higher than the average of modern humans."

    To work out where the Harbin individual fitted into human history, the scientists fed measurements from the fossil and 95 other skulls into software that compiled the most likely family tree. To their surprise, the Harbin skull and a handful of others from China formed a new branch closer to modern humans than Neanderthals.

    The Chinese researchers believe the Harbin skull is distinct enough to make it a new species, but Stringer is not convinced. He believes it is similar to another found in Dali county in China in 1978.

    "I prefer to call it Homo daliensis, but it’s not a big deal," he said. "The important thing is the third lineage of later humans that are separate from Neanderthals and separate from Homo sapiens." Details are published in three papers in The Innovation.

    Whatever the name, one possibility is that the Harbin skull is Denisovan, a mysterious group of extinct humans known largely from DNA and bone fragments recovered from Siberia. "Certainly this specimen could be Denisovan but we have to be cautious. What we need is much more complete skeletal material of the Denisovans alongside DNA," Stringer said.

    Prof John Hawks, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said the idea of a new lineage of humans was "a provocative claim", because skulls can look similar even among distant relatives. The skull being Denisovan was a good hypothesis, he added, though he was less keen on a new species name. “I think it’s a bad moment in science to be naming new species among these large-brained humans that all interbred with each other,” he said. "What we are repeatedly finding is that the differences in looks didn’t mean much to these ancient people when it comes to breeding."

    Mark Maslin, a professor of earth system science at UCL and the author of The Cradle of Humanity, said: "The beautifully preserved Chinese Harbin archaic human skull adds even more evidence that human evolution was not a simple evolutionary tree but a dense intertwined bush. We now know that there were as many as 10 different species of hominins at the same time as our own species emerged.

    "Genetic analysis shows that these species interacted and interbred – our own genetics contain the legacy of many of these ghost species. But what is a sobering thought, is that despite all this diversity, a new version of Homo sapiens emerged from Africa about 60,000 years ago which clearly out-competed, out-bred, and even out-fought these other closely related species, causing their extinction. It is only by painstaking searching and analysis of their fossils, such as the Harbin skull, do we know of their existence."


    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    [*includes video of skull*]


    The story indicates there are three papers published in a journal called The Innovation, which I'm not familiar with, which are:

    Massive cranium from Harbin in northeastern China establishes a new Middle Pleistocene human lineage

    Late Middle Pleistocene Harbin cranium represents a new Homo species

    Geochemical provenancing and direct dating of the Harbin archaic human cranium

    Which can be read in their entirety at the above links.


    If they succeed in extracting testable DNA from the remains that would go a long way in either verifying or falsifying the claims.









    1. New human species? and DNA tests help clear up questions about who lived in Denisova Cave in Altai Mountains

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  • #2
    It's really been quite a week for human evolution, hasn't it?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      It's really been quite a week for human evolution, hasn't it?
      Let's just see how much some of these pan out.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • rogue06
        rogue06 commented
        Editing a comment
        BTW: Are you familiar with "The Innovation", not to be confused with MIT's "Innovations"? All I know is that it is Open Source

    • #4
      Before certain posters become aware of the thread...


      Examples of "NO": This is not what is meant by Dragonmen.


      Again, those are examples of "NO." Those aren't the only ones but represent a cross-section.




      This MAY represent what this guy looked like, base on the cranium

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Let's just see how much some of these pan out.
        I consider the variation among recent hominins of modern humans are more varieties and subspecies than truly species. This is also likely true of the variation in the australopithecines.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

          I consider the variation among recent hominins of modern humans are more varieties and subspecies than truly species. This is also likely true of the variation in the australopithecines.
          There is a good bit of debate over whether Neandertals should constitute a distinct species or a subspecies. Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. If the latter, that means we would then be classed as Homo sapiens sapiens.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            BTW: Are you familiar with "The Innovation", not to be confused with MIT's "Innovations"? All I know is that it is Open Source
            Had never heard of it prior to this. Paleontologists have gone in for some of the online only open-access journals because there are no page limits when there's no print. But this is not one of the ones i've seen things published in previously.
            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

            Comment


            • #8
              Just read something that raised an eyebrow more than just slightly.


              Source: Dragon Man skull dumbfounds, digs up doubts about human evolution


              [...]

              "The Harbin fossil is one of the most complete human cranial fossils in the world," says Qiang Ji, a professor of paleontology of Hebei Geo University and author of a study on the skull, in a statement.

              "This fossil preserved many ... details that are critical for understanding the evolution of the Homo genus and the origin of Homo sapiens."

              The Harbin cranium is the true big box of skulls for the Homo genus. It's a massive dome with room for a modern human brain but with bigger and somewhat squared-off eye sockets, imposing brows, wide mouth and plus-sized teeth.

              © Copyright Original Source



              So far so good. Looks like there is reason to believe that the skull represents a unique Homo species. It's what comes next that raises concern

              Source: ibid


              Scientists including Ji believe the skull, thought to have come from a male who lived to be about 50 years old, is a specimen of a previously unrecognized human species dubbed Homo longi or "Dragon Man." A trio of papers from the researchers was published Friday in a journal called The Innovation and make the provocative suggestion that we are closely related to Dragons, or at least to Dragon Man and Dragon Woman.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Huh? say wot? Run that last sentence by me again.

              A trio of papers from the researchers was published Friday in a journal called The Innovation and make the provocative suggestion that we are closely related to Dragons, or at least to Dragon Man and Dragon Woman.


              Yeah that's it -- or at least this part: "...make the provocative suggestion that we are closely related to Dragons, or at least to Dragon Man and Dragon Woman"

              If that's the case then they just took the entirety of biology, ripped it to shreds, flushed it down the toilet and then nuked the sewer system for good measure. That is pure fantasy and does not belong in any science journal.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                Had never heard of it prior to this. Paleontologists have gone in for some of the online only open-access journals because there are no page limits when there's no print. But this is not one of the ones i've seen things published in previously.
                Looks like they're owned by Cell Press, which is part of Elsevier which publishes several reputable science and medical journals. They also appear to be connected to the Chinese Academy of Sciences

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Source: ibid


                  Scientists including Ji believe the skull, thought to have come from a male who lived to be about 50 years old, is a specimen of a previously unrecognized human species dubbed Homo longi or "Dragon Man." A trio of papers from the researchers was published Friday in a journal called The Innovation and make the provocative suggestion that we are closely related to Dragons, or at least to Dragon Man and Dragon Woman.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Huh? say wot? Run that last sentence by me again.
                  Reads that sentence. Reads the papers' abstracts. Reads that sentence again. Feels intense desire to stab somebody.

                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Looks like they're owned by Cell Press, which is part of Elsevier which publishes several reputable science and medical journals. They also appear to be connected to the Chinese Academy of Sciences
                  Yeah, there's been a lot of mergers in scientific publishing, leaving a handful of places in charge of lots of journals. Most of them are fine, but there's definitely some low quality stuff mixed in. Elsevier is notable for publishing a "scientific" journal devoted to homeopathy, to give one example.
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment

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