Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Recent Covid-19 infections and the unvaccinated

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    Antibodies that attach to the spike protein are more protective than antibodies that attach somewhere else on the virus, since the spike protein is key to how the virus attaches itself to and invades cells. The vaccines train the immune system with the spike protein only.
    Then the vaccine does train the immune system to respond to variants?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Ronson View Post

      Then the vaccine does train the immune system to respond to variants?
      So far, yes. There are some variants where you're more likely to get a low-severity infection, but the good vaccines still protect against severe COVID. (Again, Sinovac seems terrible against everything.)
      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
        So far, yes. There are some variants where you're more likely to get a low-severity infection, but the good vaccines still protect against severe COVID. (Again, Sinovac seems terrible against everything.)
        The Chinese vaccine seems to have achieved one thing. It allows the Chicoms to say that they developed their own vaccine.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19
          I think the vaccines work against the variants so far because they specifically teach the body to attack the spike proteins, rendering the virus inert. If the spike protein were to mutate too much, then the virus would be unable to infect our cells. The spike's purpose is to unlock the cell membrane to allow the virus inside the cell to infect it. So most mutations we have seen don't really change the spike protein much because if they did, it wouldn't be able to infect us.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            The Chinese vaccine seems to have achieved one thing. It allows the Chicoms to say that they developed their own vaccine.
            China bet big on inactivated viruses as their vaccine technology - both of their first two out the door used this approach. And, as it turns out, it doesn't seem to be an effective one against SARS-CoV-2.

            EDIT: the other problem is that these were tested against the initial circulating strains, and seemed good enough - over 50% efficacy. Now they're facing evolved strains, and good enough isn't.
            Last edited by TheLurch; 06-08-2021, 08:54 AM.
            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I think the vaccines work against the variants so far because they specifically teach the body to attack the spike proteins, rendering the virus inert. If the spike protein were to mutate too much, then the virus would be unable to infect our cells. The spike's purpose is to unlock the cell membrane to allow the virus inside the cell to infect it. So most mutations we have seen don't really change the spike protein much because if they did, it wouldn't be able to infect us.
              I wonder if part of the success we're seeing in the U.S. has something to do with our using different vaccines that work in different ways.

              Of course with reports of those seeking vaccinations dropping sharply in recent weeks (probably assuming they no longer need one), we might be experiencing another wave of the Chicom coronavirus before too long.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I think the vaccines work against the variants so far because they specifically teach the body to attack the spike proteins, rendering the virus inert. If the spike protein were to mutate too much, then the virus would be unable to infect our cells. The spike's purpose is to unlock the cell membrane to allow the virus inside the cell to infect it. So most mutations we have seen don't really change the spike protein much because if they did, it wouldn't be able to infect us.
                This is a pretty accurate simplification.

                There's the worry that some combination of mutations exists that does avoid prior immune responses but still functions for cell entry. That's why getting more people vaccinated will remain a high priority even if we get an effective herd immunity. Having the virus circulating in either unvaccinated populations here or in foreign countries without good vaccine access leaves the door open for additional mutations.
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                  China bet big on inactivated viruses as their vaccine technology - both of their first two out the door used this approach. And, as it turns out, it doesn't seem to be an effective one against SARS-CoV-2.
                  The technique does have a track record for success but apparently not this time. This will serve as a warning for those seeking to place all their eggs in one basket when it comes to things like this. Not only do you need a Plan B (and C, D, E as well), but you better be well into working on it.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                    This is a pretty accurate simplification.

                    There's the worry that some combination of mutations exists that does avoid prior immune responses but still functions for cell entry. That's why getting more people vaccinated will remain a high priority even if we get an effective herd immunity. Having the virus circulating in either unvaccinated populations here or in foreign countries without good vaccine access leaves the door open for additional mutations.
                    A very good reason why open borders is not a good policy

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      A very good reason why open borders is not a good policy
                      Well, shutting down all international travel indefinitely (which would be what's needed) has its own costs. And, given that vaccinations in the US appear likely to plateau in the 75% range, we'd have to be prepared for countries to refuse anyone entry from here, as well.

                      Overall, i'd rather see strong international vaccination programs.
                      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                        That's counter intuitive. Unless these vaccines have a mechanism involved that tricks a person's immune system into fighting off variants, I don't understand how it can be more effective.
                        Conveniently, we just have some science out on this:
                        https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/e...nslmed.abi9915
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                          Well, shutting down all international travel indefinitely (which would be what's needed) has its own costs. And, given that vaccinations in the US appear likely to plateau in the 75% range, we'd have to be prepared for countries to refuse anyone entry from here, as well.

                          Overall, i'd rather see strong international vaccination programs.
                          I'm talking more about turning your back on tens of thousands of people crossing the border illegally. If the government willfully turns a blind eye to that international air travel won't matter.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                            Then the vaccine does train the immune system to respond to variants?
                            Not exactly. The immune response is less successful against variants than against the original virus, whether the immune system was trained by vaccines or by infections. It's just that with the vaccines, the immunity goes from 'great' to 'good enough', and with infections, it goes from 'good enough' to 'not good enough'.

                            And by 'good enough', I mean that once enough people have gained (partial) immunity, the probability of transmission is low enough that the number of cases decreases.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              I'm talking more about turning your back on tens of thousands of people crossing the border illegally. If the government willfully turns a blind eye to that international air travel won't matter.
                              It's not an either/or situation - it's got to be both. While there are undoubtedly other reasons to limit the transit across out southern border, controlling the entry of SARS variants isn't a compelling reason if we're allowing international air travel.

                              Most of the areas with out of control spread of late have been nowhere near our borders, in any case.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                So this study shows that there is no benefit for previously infected people to get the vaccine.

                                https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....01.21258176v2

                                Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate the necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.

                                Results Among the 52238 included employees, 1359 (53%) of 2579 previously infected subjects remained unvaccinated, compared with 22777 (41%) of 49659 not previously infected. The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated. Not one of the 1359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a SARS-CoV-2 infection over the duration of the study. In a Cox proportional hazards regression model, after adjusting for the phase of the epidemic, vaccination was associated with a significantly lower risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection among those not previously infected (HR 0.031, 95% CI 0.015 to 0.061) but not among those previously infected (HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 to Infinity).

                                Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.


                                No mention of different strains though.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by lee_merrill, 10-19-2021, 03:24 PM
                                8 responses
                                75 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 10-12-2021, 10:31 AM
                                3 responses
                                35 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 10-12-2021, 07:46 AM
                                0 responses
                                12 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by TheLurch, 10-01-2021, 10:26 AM
                                56 responses
                                302 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post lee_merrill  
                                Started by oxmixmudd, 10-01-2021, 09:43 AM
                                37 responses
                                200 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Working...
                                X