Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

New brain wiring needed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, you need basically full wings to glide.
    Obvious counterexample.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      Flying squirrels. Seriously. You are not this stupid ...

      Learning to control wings in the motions involved in flight is not learning to fly? Seriously? Again, you are not this stupid.
      The evidence, both in this thread and elsewhere, indicates he actually is that stupid.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Exactly the example I was thinking of before clicking the link

        There are also a number of fish that can glide as well. Most notably Exocoetus volitans, capable of gliding through the air, above the water's surface, to escape predators like tuna and mackerel. And we aren't talking about a short distance jump here:

        When sufficient speed has been attained, the tail is lifted clear of the water and the fish is airborne, gliding a few feet above the surface at a speed of about 16 km/hr (10 miles per hour). The fish can make several consecutive glides, the tail propelling it up again each time it sinks back to the surface. The stronger fliers can span as much as 180 metres (600 feet) in a single glide, and compound glides, timed as long as 43 seconds, may cover 400 metres (1,300 feet).


        And while they are sometimes called the tropical two-wing flyingfish, to be clear those are large pectoral fins not wings.


        There are also gliding frogs, such as Wallace's flying frog (Rhacophorus nigropalmatus) that uses the webbing between its toes to glide after jumping off a tree (usually to escape from a snake), gliding 15 meters (50') and even more. While that may not sound like much that's approximately 1666 times their body length. That's equivalent to a 6' tall human gliding 9996' or roughly 1.9 miles (3 km).


        Moreover, even some squid are also known to get airborne. The Humboldt Squid (Dosidicus gigas) is probably the most famous example.

        Source: Scientists Unravel Mystery of Flying Squid


        How do these squid go from swimming to flying? Four phases of flight are described in the research: launching, jetting, gliding and diving.

        While swimming, the squid open up their mantle and draw in water. Then these squid launch themselves into the air with a high-powered blast of the water from their bodies. Once launched by this jet propulsion, these squid spread out both their fins and their tentacles to form wings. The squid have a membrane between their tentacles similar to the webbed toes of a frog. This helps them use their tentacles as a wing and create aerodynamic lift so they can glide – similar to a well-made paper airplane.

        These squid glide at up to 11.2 meters per second. To put that into perspective, Jamaican runner Usain Bolt won the gold medal in the 2012 Summer Olympic Games at 10.31 meters per second. The squid can remain airborne for about 3 seconds and cover upwards of 30 meters (98 feet) per flight.

        While in flight, these squid do not simply glide passively. They actively change their posture based on their distance from the water and phase of flight. After gliding above the water, the squid fold their fins and tentacles back in to minimize impact and dive into the ocean.


        Source

        © Copyright Original Source



        So we have snakes (Roy's example), fish, frogs, and even squid capable of gliding -- none of which have wings in spite of the assurances of the esteemed biologist/zoologist Lee "Everything-the-Discovery-Institute-says-is-gospel" of Tweb's that "you need basically full wings to glide."

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          And of course wing-like limbs could have first been used for something else, like say, gliding. And then gradually, through various mutations, they could have become better gliders by being able to move and steer these limbs. Nature then selects for these things that give a species an advantage -- an ability that increases the chances to survive in order to leave progeny. And then as selected for mutations increased mobility we could see gliding slowly evolving into actual flight.
          But gliding with wings is basically flight: a launch, banking to turn, and stalling to land. Instincts would be needed to enable these, and after developing full wings, would the brain catch up and develop these abilities? That is the part that would seem remarkable.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          So we have snakes (Roy's example), fish, frogs, and even squid capable of gliding -- none of which have wings in spite of the assurances of the esteemed biologist/zoologist Lee "Everything-the-Discovery-Institute-says-is-gospel" of Tweb's that "you need basically full wings to glide."
          Well, I don't mean that only wings enable gliding...

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Last edited by lee_merrill; 02-23-2021, 01:32 PM.
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            Those two statements are completely contradictory.
            No, the first statement is just to make the question clear. Of course if you say evolution produced a wing, the next question is whether evolution can produce the brain wiring too. It's that second question that seems to be neglected.

            In any case, here's a fossil bird that has four incomplete wings that could not fly, and its gliding abilities are debatable.
            So the question remains, on developing wings, could the creature reasonably be expected to develop the brain wiring too?

            Learning to control wings in the motions involved in flight is not learning to fly?
            Well, I would mention again the launch, the banking to turn, and stalling to land, flapping wings is almost incidental.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              But gliding with wings is basically flight: a launch, banking to turn, and stalling to land. Instincts would be needed to enable these, and after developing full wings, would the brain catch up and develop these abilities? That is the part that would seem remarkable.
              There is a difference between gliding and flying. Even in heavier-than-air machines the difference is very substantial.

              The change from gliding to flying is largely a degree of limb movement. And as TL keeps telling you, the use of the wings and development of the brain evolve in parallel. Sort of like how a baby learns to walk, although in that case it's more that they develop in parallel, but the analogy still holds. You don't have one waiting around for the other to catch up.

              As for remarkable. Yeah flight is a remarkable thing but not some completely mysterious unexplainable event. As you've been told before, personal incredulousness is not a valid argument.

              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Well, I don't mean that only wings enable gliding...
              Based on what you said...

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                Well, I would mention again the launch, the banking to turn, and stalling to land, flapping wings is almost incidental.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Wrt to stalling, look at the gliding frogs. As they jump from one tree to another they are going to turn their limbs to prepare to grab hold on the trunk or branch. The webbing between the digits is now catching the air in a manner that causes breaking, and slowing it's descent. The same thing with wings. Turn them slightly and you slow down.

                It isn't all that puzzling.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill
                  Well, you need basically full wings to glide.
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Well, I don't mean that only wings enable gliding...
                  That's what you said.

                  If you're willing to admit that you frequently say things that you don't mean, that'd save you a lot of trouble in future. It won't stop you from coming across as a dishonest memory-impaired ignoramus, but at least you'll be a confessed dishonest memory-impaired ignoramus.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    No, the first statement is just to make the question clear.
                    Then it is doing exactly what Cowpoke said it was doing - misrepresenting what evolution proposes in order to argue against it.

                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Of course if you say evolution produced a wing, the next question is whether evolution can produce the brain wiring too. It's that second question that seems to be neglected.
                    Given that evolution had already adapted the brain to have the capability to control an almost-wing, i'd say that it's being neglected because it's completely uninteresting.

                    It's like you're thinking we'd need radical changes to our brain to figure out what to do if we put swim fins on because our limbs suddenly behave in a completely unknown manner. Or we'd need to develop a radical re-understanding of the physics of fluids simply to figure out to move anywhere once we solved the first problem.

                    Here in reality, swim fins just require some subtle retuning of our muscle control, which doesn't even require conscious thought. And it takes a grand total of under five minutes to figure out how they alter our ability to move through the water. Yet you seem to want to believe that this sort of thing takes a miracle.

                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Well, I would mention again the launch, the banking to turn, and stalling to land, flapping wings is almost incidental.
                    By your definition, learning to use your legs to stand upright wouldn't be part of the process of learning to walk.


                    You've made a stupid argument and, instead of just accepting it, you keep saying more stupid things that make you look bad. It's making you look bad and annoying those of us who have to keep pointing out how wrong you are. Why can't you just accept reality and move on?
                    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Wrt to stalling, look at the gliding frogs. As they jump from one tree to another they are going to turn their limbs to prepare to grab hold on the trunk or branch. The webbing between the digits is now catching the air in a manner that causes breaking, and slowing it's descent. The same thing with wings. Turn them slightly and you slow down.
                      I think the interesting thing here is that the examples we've come up with cover a full range of sophistication of gliding. The snake seems to be able to fall in a way that ensures it travels further and lands safely. The frog and fish are able to extend the distance travelled during otherwise normal leaps. And the flying squirrel has the ability to redirect its flight and make more sophisticated maneuvers.

                      It's almost like animals can develop the brainpower needed for intermediate stages of sophistication as their anatomy enables it.

                      But i'm sure "it was a miracle" is a far better explanation.
                      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        The change from gliding to flying is largely a degree of limb movement. And as TL keeps telling you, the use of the wings and development of the brain evolve in parallel.
                        But gliding and flying is not selected for until the wings are ready.

                        Sort of like how a baby learns to walk, although in that case it's more that they develop in parallel, but the analogy still holds. You don't have one waiting around for the other to catch up.
                        But a baby has instincts too, such as pulling itself upright, such as trying first steps. You do need legs before you can select for walking.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                          Then it is doing exactly what Cowpoke said it was doing - misrepresenting what evolution proposes in order to argue against it.
                          No, it's not misrepresenting evolution, it's saying "let's give evolution full credit for being able to develop wings."

                          Given that evolution had already adapted the brain to have the capability to control an almost-wing, i'd say that it's being neglected because it's completely uninteresting.
                          But an almost-wing is not useful for flying, so selection would be for different capacities.

                          Here in reality, swim fins just require some subtle retuning of our muscle control, which doesn't even require conscious thought. And it takes a grand total of under five minutes to figure out how they alter our ability to move through the water. Yet you seem to want to believe that this sort of thing takes a miracle.
                          But humans don't rely on instinct as much as birds do.

                          By your definition, learning to use your legs to stand upright wouldn't be part of the process of learning to walk.
                          No, I would agree that learning to stand upright is part of learning to walk. And both of these seem to be partially instinctual in toddlers.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post

                            That's what you said.
                            I meant you can't glide with limbs that are developing into wings, but aren't there yet.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              But gliding and flying is not selected for until the wings are ready.
                              Didn't we just agree that wings weren't required for gliding?

                              Besides, as already mentioned gliding can be done with the movements the limbs are already capable of.

                              Think of it this way... have you ever seen a wingsuit, or know what one is?


                              Would you seriously argue that someone needs to have their brain completely rewired before they could use one?

                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              But a baby has instincts too, such as pulling itself upright, such as trying first steps. You do need legs before you can select for walking.
                              I'm really starting to wonder if you are just trolling

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                I meant you can't glide with limbs that are developing into wings, but aren't there yet.
                                southern-flying-squirrel-glaucomys-volans-6124472.jpg

                                Not enough facepalms for all Lee's failures.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X