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Lee Spetner on Evolution
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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The debate is here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/spetner.htmlGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
I cannot find the complete quote at present, but the hyphenated quote occurs here in quotes by Lee Spetner. I believe it is accurate, but I will keep looking.
''Common sense says that the amazing complexity of life cannot arise out of a random process. The neo-Darwinians use clever arguments to show why evolution should work and why common sense is wrong. One after another of them has explained that although the variability occurs randomly, the selection process gives it direction and makes it nonrandom. In explaining the role of selection, however, they ignore the main point: Can random changes give natural selection enough of the right genes for evolution to work? Their arguments are of three kings: (1) verbal, (2) mathematical, and (3) experimental evidence. That's a mighty array of power to bring for a theory, and if the arguments were solid and correct they should hav eput the theory on a stable and reliable foundation. The neo-Darwinians would like everyone to believe they have done that''.
The bold passages represent the missing parts of the quote. It's page 75 of ''Not By Chance'', 1997.
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Originally posted by Seeker View Post
I have the 2 Spetner books at home with me, and here is the ''full'' quote:
''Common sense says that the amazing complexity of life cannot arise out of a random process. The neo-Darwinians use clever arguments to show why evolution should work and why common sense is wrong. One after another of them has explained that although the variability occurs randomly, the selection process gives it direction and makes it nonrandom. In explaining the role of selection, however, they ignore the main point: Can random changes give natural selection enough of the right genes for evolution to work? Their arguments are of three kings: (1) verbal, (2) mathematical, and (3) experimental evidence. That's a mighty array of power to bring for a theory, and if the arguments were solid and correct they should hav eput the theory on a stable and reliable foundation. The neo-Darwinians would like everyone to believe they have done that''.
The bold passages represent the missing parts of the quote. It's page 75 of ''Not By Chance'', 1997.
Need more than this sarcastic statement to explain Spetner's argument, which is a creationist argument..Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-05-2020, 08:13 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Seeker View Post
I have the 2 Spetner books at home with me, and here is the ''full'' quote:
''Common sense says that the amazing complexity of life cannot arise out of a random process. The neo-Darwinians use clever arguments to show why evolution should work and why common sense is wrong. One after another of them has explained that although the variability occurs randomly, the selection process gives it direction and makes it nonrandom. In explaining the role of selection, however, they ignore the main point: Can random changes give natural selection enough of the right genes for evolution to work? Their arguments are of three kinds: (1) verbal, (2) mathematical, and (3) experimental evidence. That's a mighty array of power to bring for a theory, and if the arguments were solid and correct they should have put the theory on a stable and reliable foundation. The neo-Darwinians would like everyone to believe they have done that''.
The bold passages represent the missing parts of the quote. It's page 75 of ''Not By Chance!'', 1997.Last edited by Seeker; 11-05-2020, 09:41 PM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot at all. They clearly state that while he is a creationist that
...his Non Random Evolutionary Hypothesis is, in fact, agnostic. It makes no claim that scientific evidence proves a supernatural creator
Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-06-2020, 07:50 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostIt turns out Spetner is not a creationist, he proposes an alternative to neodarwinism that involves epigenetics, horizontal gene transfer, and a role for so-called "junk DNA." So no, he is not denying speciation, he is instead proposing an alternative mechanism.
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Originally posted by Seeker View Post
In the OP quote, it sure sounds like he is denying it. Which is silly and/or weird, given that even the most hardcore YEC's (i.e., AiG, CMI) accept speciation.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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