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Camels in Genesis

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  • #76
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Right, they're arguing from silence, in archaeology, no less! Not a good idea.
    Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records), but to my mind, it's still too uncertain.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by [URL="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/member.php?221-Kbertsche"
      Kbertsche[/URL] ]Perhaps. But the same argument could be made of those who take an a priori position of atheistic naturalism (i.e. God does not exist, God did not inspire any holy books.) Evidence for God is subservient to their atheistic commitment. The argument applies both ways.
      Amen!


      It applies to any a priori position - including the position that the answer cannot be or is not known. It's silly to focus on the suspicion that the other person is arguing his/her position irrationally simply because of their basis. It's quite possible for a priori fallacies to crop in debate - but assuming them where unproven is a faulty argument in and of itself. Hence refusing to address the argument or evidence in favor of claiming the other person is merely making an a priori fallacy is itself fallacious.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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      • #78
        Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records),
        ...
        Um, that IS an argument from silence. 'There are no records', even if true, is not the same thing as 'it didn't happen'.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Outis View Post
          Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records), but to my mind, it's still too uncertain.
          There is Ugaritic evidence that lists camels in a list of domesticated animals.

          Heide, Martin. 2011 “The Domestication of the Camel: Biological, Archaeological and Inscriptional Evidence from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Israel and Arabia, and Literary Evidence from the Hebrew Bible.” Ugarit-Forschungen
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
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          • #80
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            There is Ugaritic evidence that lists camels in a list of domesticated animals.

            Heide, Martin. 2011 “The Domestication of the Camel: Biological, Archaeological and Inscriptional Evidence from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Israel and Arabia, and Literary Evidence from the Hebrew Bible.” Ugarit-Forschungen
            Ugaritic, but what _date_? These little details are kinda important!

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            • #81
              http://archaeology.tau.ac.il/ben-yos...ah_TelAviv.pdf
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Outis View Post
                Ugaritic, but what _date_? These little details are kinda important!
                Sumerian Lexical Text from Ugarit (1950-1600 B.C.)
                Last edited by Bill the Cat; 02-17-2014, 06:13 PM.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  Sumerian Lexical Text from Ugarit (1950-1600 B.C.)
                  Heide notes that text, but also comes to the conclusion that camels (at least the dromedary) was exploited not before the 12th century. Does he note any reason for this discrepancy between the text and his conclusion?

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                  • #84
                    I'm still reading through the source, but so far it seems that Heide's main point in support of late domestication is that camel artifacts/artwork from earlier dates are inconclusive--it isn't clear that they're actually domesticated dromedaries. However, he does make this concession (pg. 363-364):

                    Domesticated Bactrian camels may have been available in Mesopotamia by the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 2nd millennium, which can be deduced from the inscriptional material referred to above. In addition, Bactrian camels are known to have been in use further west than Mesopotamia proper in later times. Already Walz (1956, 196, footnote 27) suggested that at least some of the occurrences in Genesis might imply Bactrian rather than Arabian camels...It has already been pointed out that Gen 12:16 does not imply that domesticated camels were commonly available in Egypt. As a semi-nomad, Abram may have brought these camels with him, which would have been very useful on the long journey from Haran to Canaan. Camels from the more remote areas of Arabia and Mesopotamia must have sporadically reached Egypt at that time (cf.Retsö, 1991, 200), which is also corroborated by some findings of camel remains and camel figurines from Egypt.
                    http://www.academia.edu/2065314/_The...g_2011_331-384

                    ETA: I should clarify that I haven't yet reached* the part where he discusses the Ugarit list; I'm just offering a guess based on what I've read so far.

                    *or maybe I have, and I accidentally skipped over it. It's late and I'm sleepy; glossing over that part in a long document wouldn't be out of the question.
                    Last edited by fm93; 02-18-2014, 12:23 AM.
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                    • #85
                      Don't feel bad - I haven't gotten that far yet!


                      Side note: When you write a paper that involves notation which can be noted or just written in more than one form, PICK ONE and use it exclusively! It is SOOOOOOO annoying when historians (esp. but not exclusive - looking at you, physicists! ) start in one date notation and switch to another. Either use date notation or century notation - quit switching back and forth!!!!!
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                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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