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Egyptian Artifacts Discovered in Israel Change Everything We Know About Passover

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  • Egyptian Artifacts Discovered in Israel Change Everything We Know About Passover

    Source: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/israel-archeology-egypt-passover-284341



    In a press conference held in Jerusalem on Wednesday, the Israeli Antiquities Authority (IAA) presented 3,400-year-old artifacts found in the south of Israel, which evidence the existence of an Egyptian clerical post in the area during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, Kol Hazman report.

    More than 300 ceramic artifacts were excavated from a cave in the Negev, most of them in astoundingly good condition. Archeologists also unearthed dozens of jewelry items made of bronze, shell, and Faience (a type of ceramic material), as well as unique stone tools made ​​of yellowish alabaster, seal rings, and makeup flacons, all dating back to 1,500-1,000 BC.

    According to standard biblical chronology, the exodus out of Egypt would have occurred at about 1,300 BC (although scholars are in dispute as to whether—and on what scale—the exodus did take place).

    “The Israelites left Egypt, but it seems that even years after their exodus to Israel, Egypt did not leave the people of Israel and their descendants," archeologist Amir Ganor, who headed the excavations, said. He added that this find gives “substantial evidence of the impact of Egyptian culture on the country's Judean inhabitants."

    The discovery was made during an operation of the Unit for the Prevention of Antiquities Robbery, who noticed signs of looting in an underground cave. Inspectors found that antiquities thieves had broken into the cave, robbed some ancient pottery, and damaged the archeological strata. IAA officials excavated deeper in order to safeguard the ancient artifacts and precious archaeological information.

    “Most of the scarab seals found in the excavation date to the 15-14th centuries BC," Dr. Daphna Ben-Tor, curator of Egyptian Archaeology at the Israel Museum, explained. “During this period, Canaan was under Egyptian rule," she said.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This has far reaching implications concerning the Biblical account of the exodus
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-04-2015, 11:46 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Of course this proves that Israel defeated the Egyptians and carried back loot after the sea closed on Pharaoh's armies and buried it in a cave. Dating is obviously all wrong as it always is except when it supports my arguments.

    Reminds me of that old Egyptian saying: 'You can take the boy out of Egypt but you can't take Egypt out of the boy.'

    Where's Ron Wyatt when you need him?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      This has far reaching implications concerning the Biblical account of the exodus
      No, it doesn't.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
        Of course this proves that Israel defeated the Egyptians and carried back loot after the sea closed on Pharaoh's armies and buried it in a cave. Dating is obviously all wrong as it always is except when it supports my arguments.

        Reminds me of that old Egyptian saying: 'You can take the boy out of Egypt but you can't take Egypt out of the boy.'

        Where's Ron Wyatt when you need him?
        They left Egypt, and doesn't say anywhere ever that they returned.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
          No, it doesn't.
          The evidence indicates that Egypt was in control of what we call Palestine and more today. This does not fit the Biblical account of Exodus.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The evidence indicates that Egypt was in control of what we call Palestine and more today. This does not fit the Biblical account of Exodus.
            From what I recall, it's uncontroversial that Egypt exercised sporadic control over Palestine. Wasn't Ramses II up in Syria somewhere when he got his butt kicked by the Hittites?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              From what I recall, it's uncontroversial that Egypt exercised sporadic control over Palestine. Wasn't Ramses II up in Syria somewhere when he got his butt kicked by the Hittites?
              The Battle of Kadesh was in the North and did not effect Egyptian control of the region of what is Palestine. Comparing the reports by both sides, it was a draw or Egyptian (victory?) most likely resulted in a draw and treaty where Hittites stopped the advance of the Egyptian influence North.

              This and other archeological discovery expands the time of Egyptian control over the region.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                The Battle of Kadesh was in the North and did not effect Egyptian control of the region of what is Palestine. Comparing the reports by both sides, it was a draw or Egyptian (victory?) most likely resulted in a draw and treaty where Hittites stopped the advance of the Egyptian influence North.
                Given the result following the battle, it was unquestionably not an Egyptian victory.
                This and other archeological discovery expands the time of Egyptian control over the region.
                I don't see how this expands much over the Amarna tablets, which are from the same timeframe.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The Battle of Kadesh was in the North and did not effect Egyptian control of the region of what is Palestine. Comparing the reports by both sides, it was a draw or Egyptian (victory?) most likely resulted in a draw and treaty where Hittites stopped the advance of the Egyptian influence North.

                  This and other archeological discovery expands the time of Egyptian control over the region.
                  FWIU, historians now view the Egyptian account a white-washing of a close but decisive defeat. It was brought about by the defection of the Amorite kingdom of Amurru to Egypt and resulted in the Hittites advancing south to the region of Damascus, halting the Egyptian resurgence into Syria as Ramses was forced to withdraw his army (which suffered massive casualties) from the region and allowed Muwatalli (the Hittite king) to take Amurru back.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    The evidence indicates that Egypt was in control of what we call Palestine and more today. This does not fit the Biblical account of Exodus.
                    There are digging in the wrong place. There were only 144,000 Israelites who were saved, or that could be the total of wicked and the good Israelites. At most there were a half million. It get this by reading the Revelations of Jesus to John, i.e. Revelation(s). There seems to be Israelites in Egypt after the New Testament and the destruction of the temple. But there is no mention of travels to Egypt. I suspect Ethopia and Egypt made the Hindu colony known as India. As I have said before, there is a lot of Syrian-Canaan area in Modern Israel. It has implications, but they are not what you suspect.

                    And I don't know of any buildings before the time of Messiah Yeshu. All of this stuff is later than expected. Carbon date the wood. I might believe the results, but it will be the closest to the actual date.
                    Last edited by Omniskeptical; 04-08-2015, 09:34 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                      There are digging in the wrong place. There were only 144,000 Israelites who were saved, or that could be the total of wicked and the good Israelites. At most there were a half million. It get this by reading the Revelations of Jesus to John, i.e. Revelation(s). There seems to be Israelites in Egypt after the New Testament and the destruction of the temple. But there is no mention of travels to Egypt. I suspect Ethopia and Egypt made the Hindu colony known as India. As I have said before, there is a lot of Syrian-Canaan area in Modern Israel. It has implications, but they are not what you suspect.

                      And I don't know of any buildings before the time of Messiah Yeshu. All of this stuff is later than expected. Carbon date the wood. I might believe the results, but it will be the closest to the actual date.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The evidence indicates that Egypt was in control of what we call Palestine and more today. This does not fit the Biblical account of Exodus.
                        The Egyptians only controlled the coastal area (Western Palestine), and never the Eastern part that the Pentateuch, Joshua, and Judges describe as being taken (more likely, temporarily paralyzed as Kenneth Kitchen notes). The mere logistics and things such as the military itinerary of Merneptah (late 13th century BC) show that the areas that the Egyptians had control of are not mentioned as taken by Joshua and Judges, as William Dever notes in a BAR lecture. The political situation in Canaan in the 14th century BC was not one of control, but one of decimation by invaders called Hapiru as the Amarna letters tell us. Also, Thutmose IV's campaigns suddenly stop around the middle of the 15th century BC and has led many to speculate he was the Pharaoh of the Exodus (in that time period it wasn't customary to name the Pharaoh, unlike the later books of the Bible such as 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc). A direct link to Hebrew and Hapiru as the etymology isn't really favored one way or the other by scholars. Anson Rainey rejects all notions that the Hapiru=Hebrews (BAR 34:06, Nov/Dec 2008, "Shasu or Habiru"). He notes that the Hapiru were not a specific ethnic group, but a social class (like slave) and that they long predated the Israelites. However, this ignores the fact that any foreign, nomadic tribe could be called this more as a slur than a technical designation, much like Jesus is called a Samaritan in John 8:48. Moreover, he notes that in Ugarit, p and b are frequently interchanged, but I can't remember why he rejected this as a possible change from Hapiru to Habiru to Hebrew. Needless to say, if you try and find an alternate etymology for Hebrew, you don't really come up with anything.

                        Most of the dating your source refers to is from 1500-1000 BC which is pretty broad, when the Exodus took only 40 years and caused a huge but ultimately temporary setback for the Egyptians and their Canaanite vassals. The Egyptians never really had strong control over the Levant after Thutmose IV's campaigns which ended in the 1460's BC (maybe until c.1420 BC they had a good grip). This is evident from the constant revolts by Canaanite cities mentioned in the Amarna letters, notably Labayu's (1350's BC). The Egyptian culture was always a big influence on Canaan down to the time of the Assyrians. Even in Sennacherib's day, 700 BC, Egypt was a (weak) shoulder to cry on. An Egyptian outpost in no way disproves the Exodus/Joshua's conquest, and the culture was there but mostly through trade until Ramses the Great reconquered much of it in the 12th century BC. The Egyptians have almost no role in Joshua-Judges because they never went to the highlands where the Israelites were. And scarabs were often reused for centuries afterwards, unless they were from someone who received a memoria damnatiae such as Hatshepsut, so 15th-14th century BC scarabs usually equals 15th-12th century BC dating anyway.
                        Last edited by Cornelius; 04-14-2015, 09:52 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                          The Egyptians only controlled the coastal area (Western Palestine), and never the Eastern part that the Pentateuch, Joshua, and Judges describe as being taken (more likely, temporarily paralyzed as Kenneth Kitchen notes). The mere logistics and things such as the military itinerary of Merneptah (late 13th century BC) show that the areas that the Egyptians had control of are not mentioned as taken by Joshua and Judges, as William Dever notes in a BAR lecture. The political situation in Canaan in the 14th century BC was not one of control, but one of decimation by invaders called Hapiru as the Amarna letters tell us. Also, Thutmose IV's campaigns suddenly stop around the middle of the 15th century BC and has led many to speculate he was the Pharaoh of the Exodus (in that time period it wasn't customary to name the Pharaoh, unlike the later books of the Bible such as 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc). A direct link to Hebrew and Hapiru as the etymology isn't really favored one way or the other by scholars. Anson Rainey rejects all notions that the Hapiru=Hebrews (BAR 34:06, Nov/Dec 2008, "Shasu or Habiru"). He notes that the Hapiru were not a specific ethnic group, but a social class (like slave) and that they long predated the Israelites. However, this ignores the fact that any foreign, nomadic tribe could be called this more as a slur than a technical designation, much like Jesus is called a Samaritan in John 8:48. Moreover, he notes that in Ugarit, p and b are frequently interchanged, but I can't remember why he rejected this as a possible change from Hapiru to Habiru to Hebrew. Needless to say, if you try and find an alternate etymology for Hebrew, you don't really come up with anything.

                          Most of the dating your source refers to is from 1500-1000 BC which is pretty broad, when the Exodus took only 40 years and caused a huge but ultimately temporary setback for the Egyptians and their Canaanite vassals. The Egyptians never really had strong control over the Levant after Thutmose IV's campaigns which ended in the 1460's BC (maybe until c.1420 BC they had a good grip). This is evident from the constant revolts by Canaanite cities mentioned in the Amarna letters, notably Labayu's (1350's BC). The Egyptian culture was always a big influence on Canaan down to the time of the Assyrians. Even in Sennacherib's day, 700 BC, Egypt was a (weak) shoulder to cry on. An Egyptian outpost in no way disproves the Exodus/Joshua's conquest, and the culture was there but mostly through trade until Ramses the Great reconquered much of it in the 12th century BC. The Egyptians have almost no role in Joshua-Judges because they never went to the highlands where the Israelites were. And scarabs were often reused for centuries afterwards, unless they were from someone who received a memoria damnatiae such as Hatshepsut, so 15th-14th century BC scarabs usually equals 15th-12th century BC dating anyway.
                          The Negev where this find occurred is not in the coastal regions, but in the hill country of what was Judah.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The Negev where this find occurred is not in the coastal regions, but in the hill country of what was Judah.
                            Do you even know the difference between Judah, Syria, Egypt, Philistine, and Phoenicia?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                              Do you even know the difference between Judah, Syria, Egypt, Philistine, and Phoenicia?
                              Yes. The Northern Negev Desert begins in the hills of what was Judah west of the Dead Sea and extends south to the Red Sea.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-14-2015, 10:06 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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