Originally posted by Teallaura
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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Here is short proof the Shroud of Turin is a fake.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWho worships icons, in your opinion? What do you mean by 'worship'?
Now, when we move outside Christianity, it's pretty easy to find people worshiping all manner of silly things (animism, anyone?).
'Venerate, adore and expect a response' being the short answer to your second question. No, it wasn't a dig at Catholicism or any thing else - not even animism. People is just stupid - which is why we need a Shepherd.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI am a tool programmer by trade. I use computer aided manufacturing software. The image on the shroud at best is a straight on projection. Not that of a wrapped cloth. And I was unaware that there was a back side to the image. What the video did was show that it is impossible to be wrapped image. The front and back images are head to head projections at best. The video makes this error very understandable.
Besides I had long reject it on biblical grounds. The head being wrapped in a napkin. (see John 20:4-7.) And Shuny made note of other relevant issues.
1) One of the compelling things about the shroud is that it does not show distortion that would be expected from a cloth on or wrapping something. That's actually a point in its favor since neither the 1st Century nor the Medieval period had the technology to create a projected image. The best attempt to date used a camera obscura and created an extremely poor image. It strains credulity that a medieval artist would have hung a body in a cave for the several days it takes to create that poor image - let alone would have stumbled on the correct combination of chemicals to make the cloth photosensitive as was done in the experiment. It gets just silly to assume that unknown artist then perfected the technique but never used it again for anything else.
2) If you are so poorly versed in the shroud's facts that you didn't know it had the front and back images how could you possibly be well enough informed to make an actually valid assessment of the evidence? A video of a Barbie doll isn't exactly rigorous science - you should have known better and done a little fact checking before you made such a sweeping - and wrong - assertion.
3) The napkin is a non-issue. Raphael posted the foremost argument - that it refers to the cloth used to secure the jaw - and I posted the secondary - that it refers to the cloth used to cover the Lord's face as His body was removed from the cross (possibly the Oviero of Sudarium) which was subsequently removed when the body was placed in the shroud. Since tying the jaw was a required part of Jewish custom, it's silly to assume that it would have been left undone hence both the issue of the face cloth (napkin) and the issue of John's use of the plural are answered. I actually favor the second argument as I think the science on the OoS is compelling but either is sufficient to answer the concern.
4) Shuny's points were refuted - pretty easily.
I don't care if you accept or reject the shroud - it's just a cloth, after all. But if you're going to post 'proof' make sure it actually proves what you think it does.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYou're certainly entitled to your opinion - but not to claiming that Scripture says something it doesn't. Scripture doesn't eliminate the possibility - not even the passages in John.
While I agree some people become unhealthily obsessed with the Shroud, few truly worship it and of those that do, they fall into the same groups as those who worship icons - just paint on wood or cloth which may be a far cry from the burial cloth of the Lord but are certainly worshiped by some. Human stupidity seems a poor reason for God to eliminate things - not sure there'd be a creation left if He did.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostFor those of us who don't do video, what's the upshot?
Incidentally, 'short video' makes one wonder what was left out. But whatever, what is the argument?
Besides I had long reject it on biblical grounds. The head being wrapped in a napkin. (see John 20:4-7.) And Shuny made note of other relevant issues.Last edited by 37818; 10-06-2014, 11:23 PM.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostRocks are a far cry from the burial cloth of Christ.
Originally posted by mossrose View PostMoses' body was never found so that men would not worship it. This would be over and above even Moses' body in the world of those who worship such things.
Originally posted by mossrose View PostI will never be convinced that the shroud is that of Christ. I believe He was wrapped in linen strips with a separate face cloth, with myrrh and spices mixed into the folds.
Carry on with your speculation, however. I will stand on scripture.
That being said, may I quote some more from Habermas?
Habermas, Gary R. "The Shroud of Turin and its Significance for Biblical Studies." Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 24:1 (1981): 47-54.
http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles...gnificance.htm
From the same asking who the man in the shroud could be:
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI see it as an object of historical inquiry, just like piecing together the pictures of any other ancient historical event. But I'm not a fan of people basing apologetics arguments based on it.
Because I don't think we can know for definite if it is authentic, I would hesitate using it for an apologetics base.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI haven't claimed at all that scripture is saying something it isn't.
Tell me this. Why should Christians even care about whether the shroud is real or not?
IF it is the Lord's then it stands to reason that God left it for some purpose, most probably apologetic. That is grounds for us to care. IF it is really the Lord's it would be a valuable apologetic tool. IF it is NOT then it is a powerful anti-apologetic - and in either case one that will have to be addressed. That's sufficient grounds for some Christians to take note and study the thing.
Should all Christians? Nope - it's just cloth. Scripture never commands us to revere artifacts but does have a bunch of other things we should be more concerned with so while it's okay to find it interesting, it's NOT okay to make it more important than following Jesus. No different from any other thing we get carried away about, really.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI see it as an object of historical inquiry, just like piecing together the pictures of any other ancient historical event. But I'm not a fan of people basing apologetics arguments based on it.
But would it be any less interesting as an object of historical inquiry if it didn't have Jesus' name tacked to it?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI haven't claimed at all that scripture is saying something it isn't.
Tell me this. Why should Christians even care about whether the shroud is real or not?
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I haven't claimed at all that scripture is saying something it isn't.
Tell me this. Why should Christians even care about whether the shroud is real or not?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostRocks are a far cry from the burial cloth of Christ.
Moses' body was never found so that men would not worship it. This would be over and above even Moses' body in the world of those who worship such things.
I will never be convinced that the shroud is that of Christ. I believe He was wrapped in linen strips with a separate face cloth, with myrrh and spices mixed into the folds.
Carry on with your speculation, however. I will stand on scripture.
While I agree some people become unhealthily obsessed with the Shroud, few truly worship it and of those that do, they fall into the same groups as those who worship icons - just paint on wood or cloth which may be a far cry from the burial cloth of the Lord but are certainly worshiped by some. Human stupidity seems a poor reason for God to eliminate things - not sure there'd be a creation left if He did.
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Rocks are a far cry from the burial cloth of Christ.
Moses' body was never found so that men would not worship it. This would be over and above even Moses' body in the world of those who worship such things.
I will never be convinced that the shroud is that of Christ. I believe He was wrapped in linen strips with a separate face cloth, with myrrh and spices mixed into the folds.
Carry on with your speculation, however. I will stand on scripture.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThe real problem with the shroud being really the burial cloth of Christ is that men will worship it.
I don't think God would provide us with a relic that would be held up as an icon to be worshipped.
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