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Confirmations of the New Testament

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Jesus could have told them after his resurrection.
    That preposterous suggestion does not explain why the four accounts are all different and why the three Synoptics differ with John on the timing of this "trial".


    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Cold Case Christianity may be of some help here, eyewitness accounts show the event from different perspectives, and the differences may be differences of emphasis.
    Forgive me if I do not accept the special pleading of a believer. Nor can events from 2000 years ago be assessed in the light of present day homicide investigations.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

    Well, here we read:

    [cite=Evidence for Christianity]… as in Matthew 27:62 he says that the day after the crucifixion was the "one after Preparation Day" (ie preparation day for the Passover.
    The festival lasts for several days.

    Leave a comment:


  • lee_merrill
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Where exactly were the writers of the four canonical gospels hiding during the interrogation with Pilate? Were they all lurking behind the columns clasping their tabulae and stylus? More to the point how did they [and Peter] sneak into the Antonia?
    Jesus could have told them after his resurrection.

    If they were all eyewitnesses why do the four accounts differ?
    Cold Case Christianity may be of some help here, eyewitness accounts show the event from different perspectives, and the differences may be differences of emphasis.

    Furthermore, why do all four gospel writers give different timings for the trial? Was it on the eve of Passover [John]? Or after Passover[Synoptics]?
    Well, here we read:

    Source: Evidence for Christianity

    … as in Matthew 27:62 he says that the day after the crucifixion was the "one after Preparation Day" (ie preparation day for the Passover.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    So it seems there is some agreement.

    Blessings,
    Lee

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Shuny, when someone claims to be an eyewitness, we count that as a reference to being an eyewitness.

    Bob claims to be an eyewitness and Mary records the account - we have an eyewitness account.
    Where exactly were the writers of the four canonical gospels hiding during the interrogation with Pilate? Were they all lurking behind the columns clasping their tabulae and stylus? More to the point how did they [and Peter] sneak into the Antonia? If they were all eyewitnesses why do the four accounts differ?

    Mark:
    • Jesus before Pilate.
    • Pilate: Are you the king of the Jews?
    • Jesus: You say so.
    • Accused by Chief Priests.
    • No answer by Jesus
    • Pilate astonished.

    Matthew as Mark, except that Pilate was “greatly” astonished.

    Luke:
    • Chief Priests charge Jesus.
    • Pilate: I find no crime in him.
    • Chief Priests: Trouble maker from Galilee to Jerusalem.

    John:
    • Before Pilate early on the eve of Passover (not after Passover as in the Synoptics).
    • Pilate: What is the charge?
    • Pilate: You judge him.
    • Jews: We cannot execute.
    • Pilate: Are you king of the Jews?
    • Jesus: A kingdom not of the world


    Furthermore, why do all four gospel writers give different timings for the trial? Was it on the eve of Passover [John]? Or after Passover[Synoptics]?

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    For the third time, this was dealt with, 4 months ago, upthread. Repeating your objections doesn't make them any more valid. Go back to sleep, Frank.
    For the third time:

    No it was not, and again NO original texts, and abundant evidence that the text of the gospels represent an evolved edited text, without known author. This true for some of the letters.

    It was only dealt with by an assertion of belief, and not evidence. It is a fallacy to use the text to prove the text when there is no evidence.

    Hand waves do not count. This is Archaeology 201, which begs for archaeological evidence.

    The objections to the claims of the original video have been made and documented.

    1) The New Testament was set in history history of the time, and like all ancient scripture contain known events, people and places, but based on this they cannot be concluded to be completely accurate. Not all events are known by current archaeology evidence of parallel record, such as the timing of census and tax collection recorded in the gospels.

    2) There is no reason to believe that those literate writing 100 to 200+ years after Jesus did not know most of the events, places and people of the time of Jesus.

    3) All the historical records cited in the video are late, third hand, and of questionable provenance such as Josephus' writings.

    3}Absolutely no text has been found within 100 years of the life of Jesus. I am being generous here, because the texts found are even later.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No it was not, and again NO original texts, and abundant evidence that the text of the gospels represent an evolved edited text, without known author. This true for some of the letters.

    It was only dealt with by an assertion of belief, and not evidence. It is a fallacy to use the text to prove the text when there is no evidence.

    Hand waves do not count. This is Archaeology 201, which begs for archaeological evidence.

    The objections to the claims of the original video have been made and documented.

    1) The New Testament was set in history history of the time, and like all ancient scripture contain known events, people and places, but based on this they cannot be concluded to be completely accurate. Not all events are known by current archaeology evidence of parallel record, such as the timing of census and tax collection recorded in the gospels.

    2) There is no reason to believe that those literate writing 100 to 200+ years after Jesus did not know most of the events, places and people of the time of Jesus.

    3) All the historical records cited in the video are late, third hand, and of questionable provenance such as Josephus' writings.

    3}Absolutely no text has been found within 100 years of the life of Jesus. I am being generous here, because the texts found are even later.
    For the third time, this was dealt with, 4 months ago, upthread. Repeating your objections doesn't make them any more valid. Go back to sleep, Frank.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    This was dealt with, 4 months ago, upthread. Go back to sleep, Frank.
    No it was not, and again NO original texts, and abundant evidence that the text of the gospels represent an evolved edited text, without known author. This true for some of the letters.

    It was only dealt with by an assertion of belief, and not evidence. It is a fallacy to use the text to prove the text when there is no evidence.

    Hand waves do not count. This is Archaeology 201, which begs for archaeological evidence.

    The objections to the claims of the original video have been made and documented.

    1) The New Testament was set in history history of the time, and like all ancient scripture contain known events, people and places, but based on this they cannot be concluded to be completely accurate. Not all events are known by current archaeology evidence of parallel record, such as the timing of census and tax collection recorded in the gospels.

    2) There is no reason to believe that those literate writing 100 to 200+ years after Jesus did not know most of the events, places and people of the time of Jesus.

    3) All the historical records cited in the video are late, third hand, and of questionable provenance such as Josephus' writings.

    3}Absolutely no text has been found within 100 years of the life of Jesus. I am being generous here, because the texts found are even later.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-19-2019, 09:42 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No it was not, and again NO original texts, and abundant evidence that the text of the gospels represent an evolved edited text, without known author. This true for some of the letters.

    It was only dealt with by an assertion of belief, and not evidence. It is a fallacy to use the tect to prove the text when there is no evidence.
    This was dealt with, 4 months ago, upthread. Go back to sleep, Frank.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    This was dealt with 4 months ago, upthread. Go back to sleep, Frank.
    No it was not, and again NO original texts, and abundant evidence that the text of the gospels represent an evolved edited text, without known author. This true for some of the letters.

    It was only dealt with by an assertion of belief, and not evidence. It is a fallacy to use the tect to prove the text when there is no evidence.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Fact: No original texts.
    This was dealt with 4 months ago, upthread. Go back to sleep, Frank.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    It does refer to closeness to an original text, even though we don't have the originals.

    Source: Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament

    All the papyri before the third/fourth century are placed in the highest category because of their age, even when their "free" text sets them at a distance from the original text.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    Unfortunately there are not original texts to refer to.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    So, handwave followed by handwave. Keep up the good fight, shunya.
    Fact: No original texts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Precisely. I could now write a book about WWII over 70 years later that relies on eyewitness testimony like from my father and a couples of uncles as well as neighbors I knew growing up.
    Excellent analogy 😀

    Leave a comment:


  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    OK from the perspective of the believer, but not the subject of the thread.
    Relevant nonetheless. Plenty of people confuse the truth of claims about history, with the truth of theological claims. So pointing this out is not off-topic, but is very relevant to it. Distinctions of that kind need making, for the sake of clarity, to avoid confusion of thought.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-30-2019, 07:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tassman
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Letter perfect?!?! I do not believe this is a realistic standard in the history of Hebrew nor Christian scriptures. They both show the distinct characteristics of evolved, edited and redacted scriptures. It is true that Hebrew scriptures became relatively evolved at some time between ~1100 and 500 BCE, but these scriptures are the result of a process of evolution up until the Dead Sea scrolls. The oldest known Torah as we know it today is from the 11-12th century.

    Source: http://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/


    The word Torah can mean many different things, but in general it refers to the first five books of the Jewish Bible, which is known as the Pentateuch. However, “torah” is also used to refer to the entire Jewish Bible as well as the whole body of Jewish laws and teaching. According to Jewish tradition, the oral Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God, who then passed on what he learned to the Jewish people.

    No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11th or 12th century.

    © Copyright Original Source

    I was borrowing the Aland’s phrase, whereby they compare and contrast the Old Testament “where an almost letter-perfect transcription was the rule” to the New Testament, whereby it continued to be a “living text" as long as it remained a manuscript tradition before it had attained canonical status.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

    Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
    And yet in II Peter 3:15-18 we have Peter describing Paul's letters as Scripture and in I Timothy 5:18 Paul quotes Scripture citing Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7.

    Leave a comment:

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