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Confirmations of the New Testament

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Er, no - one source doesn't over rule four.

    And there is more than adequate evidence for rational people that the earliest fragments date no later than the Second Century (with fragments actually dating to the First but I'm just using the 'older' known documentation) - which utterly and completely destroys the


    myth.


    You, as usual, are wrong.
    I am only aware of one manuscript (John) which is generally acknowledged to be within 100 years of Christ; others have been dated by some to late 1st/early 2nd century, but their arguments have generally not been accepted by the wider community. However, that is very much beside the point. Most scholars of antiquity would give their right arm and their firstborn for anything within 500 years of its composition. We have very little surviving writing from 2,000 years ago, and Christian writings tended to see heavy use. Given an oral culture where Christian writings were regularly read aloud in meetings, it would have been much more difficult than people imagine to slip changes past unnoticed.

    This is all immaterial for the argument at hand, regardless. We could have original autographs securely dated to AD 32, and he'd just find some other reason to handwave them away.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #77
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I am only aware of one manuscript (John) which is generally acknowledged to be within 100 years of Christ; others have been dated by some to late 1st/early 2nd century, but their arguments have generally not been accepted by the wider community. However, that is very much beside the point. Most scholars of antiquity would give their right arm and their firstborn for anything within 500 years of its composition. We have very little surviving writing from 2,000 years ago, and Christian writings tended to see heavy use. Given an oral culture where Christian writings were regularly read aloud in meetings, it would have been much more difficult than people imagine to slip changes past unnoticed.

      This is all immaterial for the argument at hand, regardless. We could have original autographs securely dated to AD 32, and he'd just find some other reason to handwave them away.
      Could have? This is an assertion without academic references. As cited there are no fragments acknowledged by the archaeologiste, and Biblical historians that have dated any fragment before 100 AD. The dating of the oldest fragment (P52) of John.

      Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/papyrus.52.html


      Papyrus 52: A Fragment of John’s Gospel


      papyrus 56

      This small fragment of St. John's Gospel, less than nine centimetres high and containing on the one side part of verses 31-33, on the other of verses 37-38 of chapter xviii is one of the collection of Greek papyri in the John Rylands Library, Manchester. It was originally discovered in Egypt, and may come from the famous site of Oxyrhynchus (Behnesa), the ruined city in Upper Egypt where Grenfell and Hunt carried out some of the most startling and successful excavations in the history of archaeology; it may be remembered that among their finds of new fragments of Classical and Christian literature were the now familiar "Sayings of Jesus". The importance of this fragment is quite out of proportion to its size, since it may with some confidence be dated in the first half of the second century A.D., and thus ranks as the earliest known fragment of the New Testament in any language.It provides us with invaluable evidence of the spread of Christianity in areas distant from the land of its origin; it is particularly interesting to know that among the books read by the early Christians in Upper Egypt was St. John's Gospel, commonly regarded as one of the latest of the books of the New Testament. Like other early Christian works which have been found in Egypt, this Gospel was written in the form of a codex, i.e. book, not of a roll, the common vehicle for pagan literature of that time.

      © Copyright Original Source

      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        No, we DON'T.

        Source: Wikipedia

        Despite the prominent place of the speech in the history and popular culture of the United States, its exact wording is disputed. The five known manuscripts of the Gettysburg Address in Lincoln's hand differ in a number of details, and also differ from contemporary newspaper reprints of the speech.
        Source

        © Copyright Original Source




        Yes, we DO.
        We still have the edited versions of the Gettysburg address in Abraham Lincoln's own handwriting.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig
          The irony of all this is shunya is ostensibly Baha'i, and those writings have been massively edited over the less than two centuries since the Bab. He seems to have no problem with that.
          Do you have a citation on the Baha'i writings to support this assertion?
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Could have? This is an assertion without academic references.
            It is an observation based on your posting history. I rather doubt academics have bothered analyzing that.
            As cited there are no fragments acknowledged by the archaeologiste, and Biblical historians that have dated any fragment before 100 AD. The dating of the oldest fragment (P52) of John.
            It helps to read for understanding before posting, shunya. You're not contradicting anything I said here - just making sloppy references to "the archaeologists" and "Biblical historians" when you should be consulting papyrologists (which I acknowledged as mostly agreeing with your position on the earliest fragments).
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              We still have the edited versions of the Gettysburg address in Abraham Lincoln's own handwriting.
              None of which agree with each other. Literally, none are the same.

              So what exactly DID he say at Gettysburg?

              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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              • #82
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                "Widely divergent" copies are the extreme exception.
                “Divergence” or otherwise is not the argument. The argument is the intent of early NT writings. This is the point being made by one of the interpreters of the critical Greek text used by New Testament translators, namely Kurt Aland. In short, someone in a position to know. And that “intent” was not necessarily to preserve the books unaltered.

                This was because the early copies of the NT books were not yet looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities. In the first two centuries there was no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not as yet in the full sense canonical. They were a "living text" in the Greek literary tradition”, not sacred autographs or Holy Writ.

                I'm sure I don't need to remind YOU that Aland & Aland is not holy writ.
                Indeed. See above.

                Try not uncritically copying from sloppy atheist sites
                You mean as opposed to not “uncritically copying” from sloppy doctrinaire scholars, as you have done, such as Don Wilkins from Talbert Seminary which is (according to its Mission Statement “Firmly rooted in inerrant Scripture”). And Edward Andrews President of Christian Publishing House. Christian inerrantists both and as such undoubtedly say what you want to hear.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  None of which agree with each other. Literally, none are the same.

                  So what exactly DID he say at Gettysburg?
                  The Gettysburg address.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    It is an observation based on your posting history. I rather doubt academics have bothered analyzing that.

                    It helps to read for understanding before posting, shunya. You're not contradicting anything I said here - just making sloppy references to "the archaeologists" and "Biblical historians" when you should be consulting papyrologists (which I acknowledged as mostly agreeing with your position on the earliest fragments).
                    Picking on wording does not change the academic research and published works on the earliest fragments of NT text. Actually the dating of the earliest fragments was interdisaplinary effort including specialists in Hebrew, archaeologists, Biblical historians, and papyrologists.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      “Divergence” or otherwise is not the argument. The argument is the intent of early NT writings. This is the point being made by one of the interpreters of the critical Greek text used by New Testament translators, namely Kurt Aland. In short, someone in a position to know. And that “intent” was not necessarily to preserve the books unaltered.

                      This was because the early copies of the NT books were not yet looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities. In the first two centuries there was no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not as yet in the full sense canonical. They were a "living text" in the Greek literary tradition”, not sacred autographs or Holy Writ.
                      They were holy enough to be regularly read aloud at meetings. That puts the lie to the "living text" idea.
                      You mean as opposed to not “uncritically copying” from sloppy doctrinaire scholars, as you have done, such as Don Wilkins from Talbert Seminary which is (according to its Mission Statement “Firmly rooted in inerrant Scripture”). And Edward Andrews President of Christian Publishing House. Christian inerrantists both and as such undoubtedly say what you want to hear.
                      I believe this is an example of "poisoning the well". If all you've got is argument by fallacy, you've failed. It's quite a stretch from "saying what I want to hear" to accusations of sloppy quoting, which is effectively all you've got.

                      This would be your opportunity to show where the quotation is misleading. Your move.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Picking on wording does not change the academic research and published works on the earliest fragments of NT text. Actually the dating of the earliest fragments was interdisaplinary effort including specialists in Hebrew, archaeologists, Biblical historians, and papyrologists.
                        Are you trying to look obtuse?

                        That was a rhetorical question. You don't have to answer.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          References were provided - and you are still wrong.

                          And don't use the possessive.
                          References not provided that would base the existence of fragments of the NT before 100 BCE. Actually the references you provided confirm that the fragments are post 100 AD except for the reference to the Mark fragment as previously cited was a pre-publication estimate. The date of the final research and publication of the results on the Mark fragment dated the fragment as well after 100 AD.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-28-2019, 12:28 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            References not provided that would base the existence of fragments of the NT before 100 BCE.
                            You didn't think this statement through, did you?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              You didn't think this statement through, did you?
                              Shunya would look a LOT smarter here if he bothered to do that on a regular basis.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                The Gettysburg address.
                                No substantive answer given.

                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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