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Confirmations of the New Testament

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Oh yeah, like that's a shocker
    Well, yeah, that's the Tassman we all know and love.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      These are not canons,
      The Muratorian Canon is evidence that as early as 170 CE there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels. But there were other books included in it as well. And the other canons or codices also included or omitted various other revered texts during the first 300+ years, i.e. until the Athanasian canon finally gave us the New Testament as we now know it.

      Repeating this assertion does not make it any more factual. Yes, there are no exant autographs;
      Nevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its most likely earliest form must be reconstructed from later copies as decided by committee vote. You are arguing for the inerrancy of the hypothetical 'original' but there is no such letter-perfect manuscript that is known to have ever existed. Certainly, none is available today.

      Despite your protestations, even critical scholars date 2 Peter to c. AD 125, making it a very early reference to Paul's letters as 'scripture' regardless of its provenance.
      But Paul himself is believed to be referring to the Hebrew scriptures e.g. in 1 Cor 15:4

      https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...o-in-1-cor-154
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        The weakness in any argument lee merrill and you offer is that there there are no first autographs known, nor any evidence what they actually composed of. There is evidence of an early simpler gospel Q, but it is inconclusive. Lee's citations only reflect the authors personal experiences, and reflections just as believers do today, and ah . . the fact that others wrote about it before Luke, which is already accepted that Mark first, than Matthew, than Luke were compiled in that order..
        The weakness of your argument is that it literally tosses 99.9999% of all ancient documentation. You don't get to apply a standard selectively - if it applies to Scripture, it applies to other ancient works, virtually none of which can bear that kind of irrational scrutiny.

        Also, 'within a hundred years' is established - and even if it weren't, the documentation is SO solid that it cannot be rationally discarded.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          You have far more patience than I. I would have long since metaphorically shaken the dust from my feet and left the infidel to his way.


          Yeah, no - trust me, I don't.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Than it will be understood that you endorse the name calling rhetoric of Teallaura, which reflects his lack of patience and understanding of those who believe differently.
            Just because you're making a moronic argument doesn't mean I'm calling you a moron...

            If you don't wanna play dodge ball, stop throwing the ball at people.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Just because you're making a moronic argument doesn't mean I'm calling you a moron...

              If you don't wanna play dodge ball, stop throwing the ball at people.
              FTR, I absolutely DO endorse name-calling rhetoric, ad homs, etc.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

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              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                The weakness of your argument is that it literally tosses 99.9999% of all ancient documentation. You don't get to apply a standard selectively - if it applies to Scripture, it applies to other ancient works, virtually none of which can bear that kind of irrational scrutiny.

                Also, 'within a hundred years' is established - and even if it weren't, the documentation is SO solid that it cannot be rationally discarded.
                The historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document. All ancient documents are open to skepticism as I referenced when rogue brought up Julius Caesar's commentaries, which are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence. There is no standard of selectivity. Can you name one ancient document that historians selectively endorse over another? Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document. All ancient documents are open to skepticism as I referenced when rogue brought up Julius Caesar's commentaries, which are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence. There is no standard of selectivity. Can you name one ancient document that historians selectively endorse over another? Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.
                  Within a hundred years meets YOUR EXPRESS CRITERIA. Further, YOUR CRITERIA throws out almost all ancient documentation. No cherry picking allowed.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    … Julius Caesar's commentaries, … are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence.
                    But the question is whether we think this is reasonably what Julius Caesar wrote. If so, we consider them authentic (not necessarily authoritative), even though we don't have copies that are fresh after Caesar wrote.

                    Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.
                    It does make them solid, as I referenced in Aland and Aland saying that editions of the NT substantially agree.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      The Muratorian Canon is evidence that as early as 170 CE there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels. But there were other books included in it as well. And the other canons or codices also included or omitted various other revered texts during the first 300+ years, i.e. until the Athanasian canon finally gave us the New Testament as we now know it.
                      I see you decided to omit the meat of my argument.
                      Nevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its most likely earliest form must be reconstructed from later copies as decided by committee vote. You are arguing for the inerrancy of the hypothetical 'original' but there is no such letter-perfect manuscript that is known to have ever existed. Certainly, none is available today.
                      Again, I note you decided to omit the part where I vehemently disagreed with you in favor of again asserting the portion with which I agreed. 2) "committee vote" just happens to be how the current set of (Protestant) scholars have opined; the result is not significantly different that Erasmus' hurried collation 500 years ago. 3) I made no such argument. Try not to burn straw men, hey?
                      But Paul himself is believed to be referring to the Hebrew scriptures e.g. in 1 Cor 15:4

                      https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...o-in-1-cor-154
                      Well, yes. That's entirely beside the point of the argument I was making, however.

                      I'll take your collective inability to address the main thrusts of the points I was making as tacit admission that you have no answer for them, but can't bring yourself to concede the overall conversation.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I see you decided to omit the meat of my argument.

                        Again, I note you decided to omit the part where I vehemently disagreed with you in favor of again asserting the portion with which I agreed. 2) "committee vote" just happens to be how the current set of (Protestant) scholars have opined; the result is not significantly different that Erasmus' hurried collation 500 years ago. 3) I made no such argument. Try not to burn straw men, hey?

                        Well, yes. That's entirely beside the point of the argument I was making, however.

                        I'll take your collective inability to address the main thrusts of the points I was making as tacit admission that you have no answer for them, but can't bring yourself to concede the overall conversation.
                        Nevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its earliest form must be reconstructed via educated guess-work by scholars from later copies. Furthermore, other books no longer in the canon were included in some sets of scripture and there were some in the current canon that were excluded. You are arguing for the inerrancy of the hypothetical 'original' when no such letter-perfect manuscript is known to have ever existed or what books comprised it.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                          It does make them solid, as I referenced in Aland and Aland saying that editions of the NT substantially agree.
                          And yet Aland and Aland also say on p 69 of their ‘Text of The New Testament’ that “Until the beginning of the fourth century the text of the New Testament developed freely. It was the ‘living text’ in the Greek literary tradition”. “And the New Testament text continued to be a ‘living text’ as long as it remained a manuscript tradition”. “Even for later scribes, for example, the parallel passages of the Gospels were so familiar that they would adapt the text of one Gospel to that of another. They also felt themselves free to make corrections in the text, improving it by their own standard of correctness, whether grammatically, stylistically, or more substantively. This was all the more true of the early period, when the text had not been attained canonical status”.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            And yet Aland and Aland also say on p 69 of their ‘Text of The New Testament’ that “Until the beginning of the fourth century the text of the New Testament developed freely. It was the ‘living text’ in the Greek literary tradition”. “And the New Testament text continued to be a ‘living text’ as long as it remained a manuscript tradition”. “Even for later scribes, for example, the parallel passages of the Gospels were so familiar that they would adapt the text of one Gospel to that of another. They also felt themselves free to make corrections in the text, improving it by their own standard of correctness, whether grammatically, stylistically, or more substantively. This was all the more true of the early period, when the text had not been attained canonical status”.
                            OPB already took you to task in post #67 for propagating this "living text" idea that the Alands themselves had already abandoned by the time the 1995 edition of their book was coming out, so why are you still going on about it like nothing happened? You think if you just act like his post never happened we'll all forget about it or something?

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                            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              OPB already took you to task in post #67 for propagating this "living text" idea that the Alands themselves had already abandoned by the time the 1995 edition of their book was coming out, so why are you still going on about it like nothing happened? You think if you just act like his post never happened we'll all forget about it or something?
                              Not so. I am quoting from the 1995 edition of Aland & Aland, The Text of The New Testament, pp. 69.
                              Last edited by Tassman; 09-06-2019, 05:07 AM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Nevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its earliest form must be reconstructed via educated guess-work by scholars from later copies.
                                Yes, though calling it "guess-work" is a bit pejorative.

                                Furthermore, other books no longer in the canon were included in some sets of scripture and there were some in the current canon that were excluded.
                                Just because we have a copy of a book containing the gospels does not mean the other books were excluded as non-canonical. And books including non-canonical items does not mean the copyist thought them canonical.

                                Source: Aland and Aland, "The Text of the New Testament"

                                It is generally understood that Acts and Revelation first circulated as independent writings. But this is also true of the writings known as the Catholic letters.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                And yet Aland and Aland also say on p 69 of their ‘Text of The New Testament’ that “Until the beginning of the fourth century the text of the New Testament developed freely. It was the ‘living text’ in the Greek literary tradition”...
                                But not so freely that the editors of the NT text cannot reasonably determine what is probably the original reading. Re Aland and Aland...

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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