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The Exodus' and the Conquest's Historicity

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not happy with how links are working since I came back. I do not think the search by archeologists was Iron Age only. I will try for some specific sources.

    go with the flow the river knows. . .

    Frank
    Ok then. I don't think they are aware of the Middle Bronze Age theory though.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

    Comment


    • #17
      The archeology evidence we have from Egypt is from ~1200 BCE when Egypt conquered the region we call Palestine.

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...rew-bible.html

      "No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.

      The Merneptah Stele, dated to about 1206 B.C.E. and now housed at the Cairo Museum, offers the earliest historical evidence of a people called Israel. Enlarge

      Tell us more about the Merneptah inscription. Why is it so famous?

      It's the earliest reference we have to the Israelites. The victory stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, the son of Ramesses II, mentions a list of peoples and city-states in Canaan, and among them are the Israelites. And it's interesting that the other entities, the other ethnic groups, are described as nascent states, but the Israelites are described as "a people." They have not yet reached a level of state organization.

      So the Egyptians, a little before 1200 B.C.E., know of a group of people somewhere in the central highlands—a loosely affiliated tribal confederation, if you will—called "Israelites." These are our Israelites. So this is a priceless inscription." [/quote]
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness
        Now I would like to attempt to justify my position that the exodus occurred around 1620B.C (Perhaps earlier) and the conquest took place from 1580B.C. onwards(or later).
        And yet the Hebrews historical records, in no less than 3 separate places, place the Exodus in the 15th century.
        "Your name and renown
        is the desire of our hearts."
        (Isaiah 26:8)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Ged View Post
          And yet the Hebrews historical records, in no less than 3 separate places, place the Exodus in the 15th century.
          Where specifically?
          1 Kings 6:1 was interpreted somewhat differently by ancient writers as compared to now. Eg Josephus.

          http://www.bibleandscience.com/archa...te.htm#BIBICAL WRITERS

          More or less, I think this is the same with Judges 11:26
          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
          Sir James Jeans

          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
          Sir Isaac Newton

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The archeology evidence we have from Egypt is from ~1200 BCE when Egypt conquered the region we call Palestine.

            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...rew-bible.html

            "No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.

            The Merneptah Stele, dated to about 1206 B.C.E. and now housed at the Cairo Museum, offers the earliest historical evidence of a people called Israel. Enlarge

            Tell us more about the Merneptah inscription. Why is it so famous?

            It's the earliest reference we have to the Israelites. The victory stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, the son of Ramesses II, mentions a list of peoples and city-states in Canaan, and among them are the Israelites. And it's interesting that the other entities, the other ethnic groups, are described as nascent states, but the Israelites are described as "a people." They have not yet reached a level of state organization.

            So the Egyptians, a little before 1200 B.C.E., know of a group of people somewhere in the central highlands—a loosely affiliated tribal confederation, if you will—called "Israelites." These are our Israelites. So this is a priceless inscription."

            Ok that is Iron Age data. What about the Middle Bronze Age?
            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
            Sir James Jeans

            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
            Sir Isaac Newton

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness
              Where specifically?
              1 Kings 6:1, 2 Chron 3:2, and Judges 11:26

              "In the four hundred and eightieth year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord."

              The record of the Kings is written in precise, 'matter of fact' language and each kings reign is reliably dated. If we accept the chronology of Kings back to Solomon (969 BC to 930 BC) why should we reject what is plainly stated in chapter 6? Then there is the plain statement of Jephthah in the book of Judges.


              Jephthah again sent messengers to the king of the Ammonites .... Israel took possession of all the land of the Amorites, who inhabited that country. And they took possession of all the territory of the Amorites from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the wilderness to the Jordan. ... While Israel lived in Heshbon and its villages, and in Aroer and its villages, and in all the cities that are on the banks of the Arnon, 300 years, why did you not deliver them within that time?
              Judges 11:14, 26


              300 years from Jephthah to Israels settling of the trans-Jordan (Num 21:31, Deut 1:3-4) brings us to the year 1405 BC which fits perfectly with the Kings records.

              I took a look at your link and it seems to think that the oppressions mentioned in the book of Judges were nation wide. Based on that assumption they have accumulated the years and created about 100 years error. However, the oppressions were regional and in some cases overlapped.
              Last edited by Ged; 01-25-2014, 12:23 AM.
              "Your name and renown
              is the desire of our hearts."
              (Isaiah 26:8)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ged View Post
                1 Kings 6:1, 2 Chron 3:2, and Judges 11:26

                "In the four hundred and eightieth year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord."

                The record of the Kings is written in precise, 'matter of fact' language and each kings reign is reliably dated. If we accept the chronology of Kings back to Solomon (969 BC to 930 BC) why should we reject what is plainly stated in chapter 6? Then there is the plain statement of Jephthah in the book of Judges.


                Jephthah again sent messengers to the king of the Ammonites .... Israel took possession of all the land of the Amorites, who inhabited that country. And they took possession of all the territory of the Amorites from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the wilderness to the Jordan. ... While Israel lived in Heshbon and its villages, and in Aroer and its villages, and in all the cities that are on the banks of the Arnon, 300 years, why did you not deliver them within that time?
                Judges 11:14, 26


                300 years from Jephthah to Israels settling of the trans-Jordan (Num 21:31, Deut 1:3-4) brings us to the year 1405 BC which fits perfectly with the Kings records.

                I took a look at your link and it seems to think that the oppressions mentioned in the book of Judges were nation wide. Based on that assumption they have accumulated the years and created about 100 years error. However, the oppressions were regional and in some cases overlapped.
                I didn't see anything of note in 2 chronicles 3:2 so I'll not bother with that.
                You have to also take into account the traditions when interpreting texts. So why is Josephus wrong in his interpretation of the text?
                The same interpretation method of 1 Kings 6:1 is used in Judges 11:26 by me.
                -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                Sir James Jeans

                -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                Sir Isaac Newton

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness
                  So why is Josephus wrong in his interpretation of the text?
                  Accuracy during the kings reigns was not his strongest point, so Im not surprised that Josephus simply summed up the judges era without considering the possibility of overlaps. Also, I notice that your linked article chooses a mis-translation in order to make his point about Acts 13:18:21. Here is his quote:

                  "For some forty years He bore with their conduct in the desert. Then in the Canaanite country, after overthrowing seven nations, whose lands he gave them to be their heritage for some 450 years he appointed judges for them until the time of the prophet Samuel. It was then that they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin. He reigned forty years before God removed him and appointed David as their King..."


                  But please read it again in the ESV.

                  The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness. And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. (Acts 13:17-20 ESV emphasis mine)

                  I believe the modern versions translate the text correctly in this case. So the '450-year' approximation St. Paul is referring to is:
                  1. 400 years enslaved (compare Acts 7:6)
                  2. 40 years wandering
                  3. 7 years conquering promised land
                  4. 1-2 years distributing inheritance

                  total = 449 years (approx 450)
                  Last edited by Ged; 01-25-2014, 11:46 AM.
                  "Your name and renown
                  is the desire of our hearts."
                  (Isaiah 26:8)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                    Ok that is Iron Age data. What about the Middle Bronze Age?
                    From the Egyptian perspective there is no evidence or record of anything prior to this involving Israelites. In fact little or no significant Bronze Age evidence of Israelites in Palestine. The presence in Palestine at that time is Canaanite, and Jeruselum was a Canaanite City under Egyptian. Egyptian records and archeological evidence documents that the Bronze Age Palestine was Canaanite under Egyptian control from ~1600 to 1200 BCE. By the evidence Israelites were a tribe of Canaanites up until 1200 BCE, when it was referred to as a pastorial tribe in the hills of Palestine. Israel rose in power after this at the expense of the Canaanites as they lost to Philistines, Phoenicians and Israelites
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-25-2014, 04:19 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      From the Egyptian perspective there is no evidence or record of anything prior to this involving Israelites. In fact little or no significant Bronze Age evidence of Israelites in Palestine. The presence in Palestine at that time is Canaanite, and Jeruselum was a Canaanite City under Egyptian. Egyptian records and archeological evidence documents that the Bronze Age Palestine was Canaanite under Egyptian control from ~1600 to 1200 BCE. By the evidence Israelites were a tribe of Canaanites up until 1200 BCE, when it was referred to as a pastorial tribe in the hills of Palestine. Israel rose in power after this at the expense of the Canaanites as they lost to Philistines, Phoenicians and Israelites
                      And the Israelites never controlled Palestine during that time, at least according to the biblical text. So what's your point?
                      About Jerusalem being Canaanite, yeah there were Canaanites living there which I don't think contradicts my model.
                      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                      Sir James Jeans

                      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                      Sir Isaac Newton

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ged View Post
                        Accuracy during the kings reigns was not his strongest point, so Im not surprised that Josephus simply summed up the judges era without considering the possibility of overlaps. Also, I notice that your linked article chooses a mis-translation in order to make his point about Acts 13:18:21. Here is his quote:

                        "For some forty years He bore with their conduct in the desert. Then in the Canaanite country, after overthrowing seven nations, whose lands he gave them to be their heritage for some 450 years he appointed judges for them until the time of the prophet Samuel. It was then that they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin. He reigned forty years before God removed him and appointed David as their King..."


                        But please read it again in the ESV.

                        The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness. And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. (Acts 13:17-20 ESV emphasis mine)

                        I believe the modern versions translate the text correctly in this case. So the '450-year' approximation St. Paul is referring to is:
                        1. 400 years enslaved (compare Acts 7:6)
                        2. 40 years wandering
                        3. 7 years conquering promised land
                        4. 1-2 years distributing inheritance

                        total = 449 years (approx 450)
                        Fair enough. I really don't care about Acts 13:20 in this debate (apparently it can go either way)
                        But what about the others which didn't use the 480 years?
                        -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                        Sir James Jeans

                        -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                        Sir Isaac Newton

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          By "others" you mean, Josephus, Africanus, Clement, Tatian and Theophilus. Notice how all of these are 1st century historians, whereas, the Hebrew kings records were penned before the Babylonian captivity. My answer to you is that the original records were probably lost when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 587BC. Therefore, the 1st century historians didn't know anymore than we do, and they had to work it out from the same books (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles) as we do.

                          I would go so far as to say that modern chronologists are better equipped than 1st century writers because the synchronisms between the Hebrew kings have only been properly settled this century. Hence the all-important 4th year of Solomon's reign.
                          "Your name and renown
                          is the desire of our hearts."
                          (Isaiah 26:8)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ged View Post
                            By "others" you mean, Josephus, Africanus, Clement, Tatian and Theophilus. Notice how all of these are 1st century historians, whereas, the Hebrew kings records were penned before the Babylonian captivity. My answer to you is that the original records were probably lost when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 587BC. Therefore, the 1st century historians didn't know anymore than we do, and they had to work it out from the same books (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles) as we do.

                            I would go so far as to say that modern chronologists are better equipped than 1st century writers because the synchronisms between the Hebrew kings have only been properly settled this century. Hence the all-important 4th year of Solomon's reign.
                            I was thinking along the lines that these people would have preserved traditions on the sacred texts and that we should use them to clarify the text on what it means.
                            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                            Sir James Jeans

                            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                            Sir Isaac Newton

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The impression I get of inter-testament chronology is that the 1st century writers (Jewish and Christian) were having problems nailing it down accurately. The Seder Olam did a bad job of it and the Church fathers had the same historical data as the Jews. That is one of the reasons why such large crowds came to hear John in the wilderness. They realised that his count of the Sabbatical years (Daniels 70 weeks) had nearly reached the revealing of Messiah but weren't absolutely sure. Jubilees were on the right track but, again, there were problems and no one had it perfectly pinned.

                              It has not been until our day that we have been able to compare Hebrew, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian and Greek chronicles getting a precise chronology between Solomon and Christ. As for the era between Moses and Solomon, it still gets a lot of debate. Personally, I think that we can place the judges and get to Solomons 4th year in 480 years.
                              "Your name and renown
                              is the desire of our hearts."
                              (Isaiah 26:8)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                                And the Israelites never controlled Palestine during that time, at least according to the biblical text. So what's your point?
                                About Jerusalem being Canaanite, yeah there were Canaanites living there which I don't think contradicts my model.
                                The point is the evidence indicates that the Israelites were pastoral tribes in the hills of Palestine, and are home grown as part of Canaan up until 1200 BCE and after. There is no evidence for Exodus and conquest of Palestine.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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