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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
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Jesus' childhood home discovered?
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Are you having problems with comprehension?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot at all. You are just engaging in your usual obfuscations."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe short answer is that we do not know. It is more than probable that some real human being[s] may exist behind those gospel figures [and I lean strongly to that conclusion] but there is nothing conclusive. It would therefore be less than objective not to recognise that latter fact.
The fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.
Look at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.
In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.
For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.
It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.
Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.
For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.
And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.
1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThat at least is an honest answer instead of trying to bounce around and covering all bases.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostLook at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.
In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.
For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.
It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.
Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.
For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.
And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.
1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).
From a cursory examination, the bulk of your post appears to be little more than an adapted compilation of various C&Ps from Reddit, Wikipedia and no doubt other easily accessed online sites. Citing your sources would show probity.
However if this is, once again, an attempt to impress any of your base who may be reading this with your erudition, I suspect you will have succeeded."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
So now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNeat! Some interesting evidence, indeed...
Blessings,
LeeGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
A little too convenient I suspect. The well built and attested first century dwelling has a tradition of being the home of Jesus [to wit the much later 4th century church] but that is as far as Dr Dark can really take his theory. Everything else he is proffering is pure speculation. It is like the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem which is allegedly supposed to be the site of the crucifixion and burial, based again on much later [4th century allegations]. A veritable industry developed from the fourth century producing relics of Jesus, the Holy Family and various saints.
Of course the other possibility is that Dark was having a laugh, given the season that is fast approaching.
AFAICT, that Hadrian ordered that a cave which contained a rock-cut tomb be filled in order to create a foundation for a temple dedicated to Jupiter during the construction of Aelia Capitolina is not really debated. The only disagreement seems to be whether this temple was one dedicated to Venus instead.
Still, that doesn't prove that this was the place was where or Jesus was buried or that they are even the same tombs. But it does show that the tradition stretches back much further than Constantine the Great's mother Helena claiming to have discovered the tomb while in Jerusalem.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
edit not quote
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostActually the apocryphal Acts of John, written around 180 A.D., assigned significance to a cave on the Mount of Olives, just outside ancient Jerusalem and the historian Eusebius Pamphili (a.k.a., Eusebius of Caesarea), wrote in his Historia ecclesiastica (or "Ecclesiastical History") between 312-324 A.D., that the Roman Emperor Hadrian (ruled from 117 to 138 A.D.) order the construction of a temple over the tomb -- just like he did, and for the same reasons, that he had temples built at or next to the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and the most important Samaritan shrine on Mount Gerizim (where they believe the prophet Joshua built a temple).
AFAICT, that Hadrian ordered that a cave which contained a rock-cut tomb be filled in order to create a foundation for a temple dedicated to Jupiter during the construction of Aelia Capitolina is not really debated. The only disagreement seems to be whether this temple was one dedicated to Venus instead.
Still, that doesn't prove that this was the place was where or Jesus was buried or that they are even the same tombs. But it does show that the tradition stretches back much further than Constantine the Great's mother Helena claiming to have discovered the tomb while in Jerusalem.
Do you have a serious point to make? Or are you just out to impress your "base"?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
My my we have been a busy little bee trawling the net again, haven't we?
Do you have a serious point to make? Or are you just out to impress your "base"?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNothing to see here folks. Just someone who obviously has a stick wedged firmly up her bum"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View Postedit not quoteThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I asked you a question, where is your answer? Or can't you find anything on Google?
But since you've at least feigned curiosity, it is part of my own effort to include more posts on theological matters or Christians and Christianity in general here at THEOLOGYweb. These include posts like
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...-walter-hooper
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e5#post1215026
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...80#post1214914
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e7#post1214311 (along with #201)
My posts in this thread but primarily #5:
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...d-the-big-rock
And even, to a much less extent, including it in humor sections:
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...79#post1214403
As well as a few in sections that you aren't privy to.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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