Jesus' childhood home discovered?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted.

Once again, I feel bound to ask, do you have problems with comprehension?

[rogue06]

So now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That at least is an honest answer instead of trying to bounce around and covering all bases.

It is effectively a re-wording of what I originally wrote and which you dismissed as "usual obfuscations".

The fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.

The fact that someone existed is generally accepted.

Look at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.

In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.

For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.

It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.

Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.

For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.

And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger^[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.



1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).

What relevance does any of this have? What point are you endeavouring to make?

From a cursory examination, the bulk of your post appears to be little more than an adapted compilation of various C&Ps from Reddit, Wikipedia and no doubt other easily accessed online sites. Citing your sources would show probity.

However if this is, once again, an attempt to impress any of your base who may be reading this with your erudition, I suspect you will have succeeded.

[rogue06]

The short answer is that we do not know. It is more than probable that some real human being[s] may exist behind those gospel figures [and I lean strongly to that conclusion] but there is nothing conclusive. It would therefore be less than objective not to recognise that latter fact.

That at least is an honest answer instead of trying to bounce around and covering all bases.

The fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.

Look at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.

In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.

For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.

It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.

Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.

For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.

And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger^[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.



1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Not at all. You are just engaging in your usual obfuscations.

The short answer is that we do not know. It is more than probable that some real human being[s] may exist behind those gospel figures [and I lean strongly to that conclusion] but there is nothing conclusive. It would therefore be less than objective not to recognise that latter fact.

[rogue06]

Are you having problems with comprehension?

Not at all. You are just engaging in your usual obfuscations.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So you're trying to have it both ways.

Are you having problems with comprehension?

[rogue06]

No, but what I stated is fact.

Given the prevailing situation within the region and the Messianic sects we know arose from the late first century BCE, I consider it very likely that a man, or possibly various men, upon whom the different characters of Jesus we are presented with in the Synoptic gospels, existed. How realistically those gospel characters reflect any real man/men is, of course, another matter.

However, I also recognise the fact that we lack any contemporary extraneous evidence for a figure we now know as Jesus of Nazareth.

Therefore, while I strongly lean to the view that a real man [or men] lie behind the gospel accounts, I have to accept the possibility that no such individual ever actually existed.

So you're trying to have it both ways.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Are you saying that you are a Jesus Myther?

No, but what I stated is fact.

Given the prevailing situation within the region and the Messianic sects we know arose from the late first century BCE, I consider it very likely that a man, or possibly various men, upon whom the different characters of Jesus we are presented with in the Synoptic gospels, existed. How realistically those gospel characters reflect any real man/men is, of course, another matter.

However, I also recognise the fact that we lack any contemporary extraneous evidence for a figure we now know as Jesus of Nazareth.

Therefore, while I strongly lean to the view that a real man [or men] lie behind the gospel accounts, I have to accept the possibility that no such individual ever actually existed.

[rogue06]

An odd site to feature an article on archaeology, although, as its name suggests it offers popular information on various serious topics. Its comments on this topic are very "populist", to wit, "The big breakthrough he describes in his new book is discovering evidence of a stone house that most likely belonged to Jesus’s family. (The odds are fairly good.)" . What "odds" might these be and why does Ms Delbert think they are "fairly good"? She does not inform us

Furthermore we do not have a shred of contemporary evidence [i.e. anything that predates Josephus' comments at the end of the first century CE ] for Jesus of Nazareth despite the article's later contention that "But the historical reality, from dozens or even hundreds of pieces of corroborating evidence from all walks of life at the time, is that he was, at the very least, a real guy". What is this "corroborating evidence" and what specific "walks of life " does it come from?What does Ms Delbert actually mean by "at the time" ? Again, she does not inform us.


As for Dark's latest book, the hard copy of which is retailing at three figures, a not uncommon price range for for such scholarly tomes. It is hardly surprising that a serious academic has decided to publish after so many years of work.

Are you saying that you are a Jesus Myther?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Another piece on Dark's claim of having located Jesus' childhood home -- in Popular Mechanics of all places, which allows you to vote on it. Currently it is 51% for "Sure why not? He was a real guy, after all" and 49% "I doubt it."

Source: Archaeologists Believe They've Unearthed Jesus's Childhood Home

The evidence lies beneath a convent in Nazareth.


Archaeologists have unearthed evidence at a place believed to be the historical Jesus of Nazareth’s birthplace.

Researcher Ken Dark, a professor at the University of Reading, has a new book about more than a century of archaeological digs at the Nazareth Convent site in the north of modern-day Israel.

The Sisters of Nazareth Convent goes through the entire history of the Nazareth archaeological site—including the modern side where archaeologists explore it piece by piece, as well as the ancient history they’re trying to recreate with their evidence and artifacts.

Standards for archaeology have changed a great deal in the last 100 years, as have standards for how to treat any removable items archaeologists find at sites.

Dark is an archaeologist with a 30-year career, and he’s worked on digs at the Nazareth site since at least 2004. The big breakthrough he describes in his new book is discovering evidence of a stone house that most likely belonged to Jesus’s family. (The odds are fairly good.)

In terms of the archaeology, this includes evidence of human effort to shape stone into blocks for building. And at the much-studied Nazareth Convent, this evidence joins previously discovered layers of churches and other structures built later.

Marks made by different eras of builders can help scientists separate which fragments and discoveries belong to which approximate century. This is how, after a century of different projects, Dark and his colleagues were able to identify a structure they can pinpoint to around Jesus’s lifetime. The surroundings include cultural evidence, too, like stone burial methods that researchers know came from contemporary Rome.

Modern-day Nazareth is both a site of high Christian pilgrimage traffic and, interestingly, one of the most Muslim cities in Israel. In fact, Arab Israelis are the majority in the Northern District of Israel, where Nazareth is located. In Jesus’s time, Nazareth was part of the region called Galilee. The very fact that Jesus is thought to be from there has meant that, in the centuries since, the area has been trampled and fought over—something that can only make archaeology even more difficult.

The debate rages on over whether Jesus was the miracle-doing savior in the origin story of Christianity. But the historical reality, from dozens or even hundreds of pieces of corroborating evidence from all walks of life at the time, is that he was, at the very least, a real guy. That means finding things like the place where he might have been born, with all the trappings of daily life at the very turn from BCE to CE.

While Nazareth was near the center of human development at the time, places farther from the traditional human origin in the Fertile Crescent were still using a previous epoch of technology. What we find in each location can help to document how people lived and even how technology moved around the world.

This is one reason the archaeological record is so important—and why there are still insights to be found beneath the Nazareth Convent after more than a century of excavation.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

So it appears that Dark has written a book about it.

An odd site to feature an article on archaeology, although, as its name suggests it offers popular information on various serious topics. Its comments on this topic are very "populist", to wit, "The big breakthrough he describes in his new book is discovering evidence of a stone house that most likely belonged to Jesus’s family. (The odds are fairly good.)" . What "odds" might these be and why does Ms Delbert think they are "fairly good"? She does not inform us

Furthermore we do not have a shred of contemporary evidence [i.e. anything that predates Josephus' comments at the end of the first century CE ] for Jesus of Nazareth despite the article's later contention that "But the historical reality, from dozens or even hundreds of pieces of corroborating evidence from all walks of life at the time, is that he was, at the very least, a real guy". What is this "corroborating evidence" and what specific "walks of life " does it come from?What does Ms Delbert actually mean by "at the time" ? Again, she does not inform us.


As for Dark's latest book, the hard copy of which is retailing at three figures, a not uncommon price range for for such scholarly tomes. It is hardly surprising that a serious academic has decided to publish after so many years of work.

[rogue06]

Another piece on Dark's claim of having located Jesus' childhood home -- in Popular Mechanics of all places, which allows you to vote on it. Currently it is 51% for "Sure why not? He was a real guy, after all" and 49% "I doubt it."

Source: Archaeologists Believe They've Unearthed Jesus's Childhood Home

The evidence lies beneath a convent in Nazareth.


Archaeologists have unearthed evidence at a place believed to be the historical Jesus of Nazareth’s birthplace.

Researcher Ken Dark, a professor at the University of Reading, has a new book about more than a century of archaeological digs at the Nazareth Convent site in the north of modern-day Israel.

The Sisters of Nazareth Convent goes through the entire history of the Nazareth archaeological site—including the modern side where archaeologists explore it piece by piece, as well as the ancient history they’re trying to recreate with their evidence and artifacts.

Standards for archaeology have changed a great deal in the last 100 years, as have standards for how to treat any removable items archaeologists find at sites.

Dark is an archaeologist with a 30-year career, and he’s worked on digs at the Nazareth site since at least 2004. The big breakthrough he describes in his new book is discovering evidence of a stone house that most likely belonged to Jesus’s family. (The odds are fairly good.)

In terms of the archaeology, this includes evidence of human effort to shape stone into blocks for building. And at the much-studied Nazareth Convent, this evidence joins previously discovered layers of churches and other structures built later.

Marks made by different eras of builders can help scientists separate which fragments and discoveries belong to which approximate century. This is how, after a century of different projects, Dark and his colleagues were able to identify a structure they can pinpoint to around Jesus’s lifetime. The surroundings include cultural evidence, too, like stone burial methods that researchers know came from contemporary Rome.

Modern-day Nazareth is both a site of high Christian pilgrimage traffic and, interestingly, one of the most Muslim cities in Israel. In fact, Arab Israelis are the majority in the Northern District of Israel, where Nazareth is located. In Jesus’s time, Nazareth was part of the region called Galilee. The very fact that Jesus is thought to be from there has meant that, in the centuries since, the area has been trampled and fought over—something that can only make archaeology even more difficult.

The debate rages on over whether Jesus was the miracle-doing savior in the origin story of Christianity. But the historical reality, from dozens or even hundreds of pieces of corroborating evidence from all walks of life at the time, is that he was, at the very least, a real guy. That means finding things like the place where he might have been born, with all the trappings of daily life at the very turn from BCE to CE.

While Nazareth was near the center of human development at the time, places farther from the traditional human origin in the Fertile Crescent were still using a previous epoch of technology. What we find in each location can help to document how people lived and even how technology moved around the world.

This is one reason the archaeological record is so important—and why there are still insights to be found beneath the Nazareth Convent after more than a century of excavation.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

So it appears that Dark has written a book about it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

For anyone who is interested I recommend Charles Freeman's Holy Bones, Holy Dust: How Relics Shaped the History of Medieval Europe; and Joe Nickell's The Jesus Relics: From the Holy Grail to the Turin Shroud.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Unless somebody were to come across a title deed for the property with Joseph's name on it, I see absolutely no reason to believe it. It's like the Galilee fishing boat that people claim was the one Jesus taught in. And how many empty tombs have people claimed were the one Jesus was buried in?

And do not forget the various pieces of the "true cross".

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It appears that if anything Dark may have let his enthusiasm get away from him rather than he was having a lark.

My last remark was jocular - hence the smile emoticon. However, it would be necessary to consult any papers he has recently published on this topic in order to read his theories and conclusions in more detail.