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Jesus' childhood home discovered?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    So you're trying to have it both ways.
    Are you having problems with comprehension?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Are you having problems with comprehension?
      Not at all. You are just engaging in your usual obfuscations.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Not at all. You are just engaging in your usual obfuscations.
        The short answer is that we do not know. It is more than probable that some real human being[s] may exist behind those gospel figures [and I lean strongly to that conclusion] but there is nothing conclusive. It would therefore be less than objective not to recognise that latter fact.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          The short answer is that we do not know. It is more than probable that some real human being[s] may exist behind those gospel figures [and I lean strongly to that conclusion] but there is nothing conclusive. It would therefore be less than objective not to recognise that latter fact.
          That at least is an honest answer instead of trying to bounce around and covering all bases.

          The fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.

          Look at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.

          In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.

          For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.

          It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.

          Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.

          For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.

          And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.



          1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            That at least is an honest answer instead of trying to bounce around and covering all bases.
            It is effectively a re-wording of what I originally wrote and which you dismissed as "usual obfuscations".

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            The fact that Jesus did exist (whether or not you accept that He's divine is a separate issue) and that existence is well attested to.
            The fact that someone existed is generally accepted.

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Look at the New Testament for instance. It is a collection of separate documented sources composed by a number of different authors. The fact that they weren't written during his life time is hardly a cause for doubt in that it is extraordinarily rare to have contemporary accounts for anyone from ancient times.

            In fact, most works from that time have been lost, including works that were very famous and repeatedly copied.

            For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' (regarded as the Father of Tragedies) plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today. Then you have folks like Aristarchus of Tegea, a contemporary of Sophocles and Euripides, who composed 70 plays, of which only the titles of three of them (Achilles, Asclepius, and Tantalus), along with only a single line of the text, have survived. And of the over 700 works by the Greek Stoic philosopher Chrysippus of Soli, none have survived except for few fragments embedded in the works of later authors.

            It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.

            Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you can bet that these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. For instance, Augustus' Rescript to Brutus Respecting Cato, Exhortations to Philosophy, History of His Own Life, Epigrams, and Sicily (a work in verse) have all been lost. Works by his immediate predecessor, Julius Caesar, such as De astris liber, Dicta collectanea, Laudes Herculis, Libri auspiciorum (a.k.a., Auguralia), and Oedipus (among others) are lost while several others are known only by scattered fragments.

            For the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.

            And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger[1]. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just the one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no account of it whatsoever. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.



            1. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, many of his works have been lost including Dubii sermonis (8 books/volumes), History of his Times (31 books, which he deliberately reserved for publication after his death), Studiosus, De jaculatione equestri, and most famously Bella Germaniae (History of the German Wars -- consisting of 20 books). The latter was his first published work and all that remains are a handful of quotations in the Roman historian Tacitus' Annals and Germania (Pliny the Younger wrote of Tacitus' reliance upon his uncle's book).
            What relevance does any of this have? What point are you endeavouring to make?

            From a cursory examination, the bulk of your post appears to be little more than an adapted compilation of various C&Ps from Reddit, Wikipedia and no doubt other easily accessed online sites. Citing your sources would show probity.

            However if this is, once again, an attempt to impress any of your base who may be reading this with your erudition, I suspect you will have succeeded.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #21
              So now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                So now you've gone from saying that Jesus might have been a compilation of different characters (hence not a real person but a myth based on stories about several people) to saying you meant that his existence is generally accepted.
                Once again, I feel bound to ask, do you have problems with comprehension?
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Neat! Some interesting evidence, indeed...

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Actually no evidence at present except for dating the house approximately to the time Jesus lived.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeareís Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    A little too convenient I suspect. The well built and attested first century dwelling has a tradition of being the home of Jesus [to wit the much later 4th century church] but that is as far as Dr Dark can really take his theory. Everything else he is proffering is pure speculation. It is like the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem which is allegedly supposed to be the site of the crucifixion and burial, based again on much later [4th century allegations]. A veritable industry developed from the fourth century producing relics of Jesus, the Holy Family and various saints.

                    Of course the other possibility is that Dark was having a laugh, given the season that is fast approaching.
                    Actually the apocryphal Acts of John, written around 180 A.D., assigned significance to a cave on the Mount of Olives, just outside ancient Jerusalem and the historian Eusebius Pamphili (a.k.a., Eusebius of Caesarea), wrote in his Historia ecclesiastica (or "Ecclesiastical History") between 312-324 A.D., that the Roman Emperor Hadrian (ruled from 117 to 138 A.D.) order the construction of a temple over the tomb -- just like he did, and for the same reasons, that he had temples built at or next to the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and the most important Samaritan shrine on Mount Gerizim (where they believe the prophet Joshua built a temple).

                    AFAICT, that Hadrian ordered that a cave which contained a rock-cut tomb be filled in order to create a foundation for a temple dedicated to Jupiter during the construction of Aelia Capitolina is not really debated. The only disagreement seems to be whether this temple was one dedicated to Venus instead.

                    Still, that doesn't prove that this was the place was where or Jesus was buried or that they are even the same tombs. But it does show that the tradition stretches back much further than Constantine the Great's mother Helena claiming to have discovered the tomb while in Jerusalem.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      edit not quote

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Actually the apocryphal Acts of John, written around 180 A.D., assigned significance to a cave on the Mount of Olives, just outside ancient Jerusalem and the historian Eusebius Pamphili (a.k.a., Eusebius of Caesarea), wrote in his Historia ecclesiastica (or "Ecclesiastical History") between 312-324 A.D., that the Roman Emperor Hadrian (ruled from 117 to 138 A.D.) order the construction of a temple over the tomb -- just like he did, and for the same reasons, that he had temples built at or next to the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and the most important Samaritan shrine on Mount Gerizim (where they believe the prophet Joshua built a temple).

                        AFAICT, that Hadrian ordered that a cave which contained a rock-cut tomb be filled in order to create a foundation for a temple dedicated to Jupiter during the construction of Aelia Capitolina is not really debated. The only disagreement seems to be whether this temple was one dedicated to Venus instead.

                        Still, that doesn't prove that this was the place was where or Jesus was buried or that they are even the same tombs. But it does show that the tradition stretches back much further than Constantine the Great's mother Helena claiming to have discovered the tomb while in Jerusalem.
                        My my we have been a busy little bee trawling the net again, haven't we?

                        Do you have a serious point to make? Or are you just out to impress your "base"?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          My my we have been a busy little bee trawling the net again, haven't we?

                          Do you have a serious point to make? Or are you just out to impress your "base"?
                          Nothing to see here folks. Just someone who obviously has a stick wedged firmly up her bum

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Nothing to see here folks. Just someone who obviously has a stick wedged firmly up her bum
                            I asked you a question, where is your answer? Or can't you find anything on Google?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              edit not quote
                              How could you POSSIBLY DO THAT?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                I asked you a question, where is your answer? Or can't you find anything on Google?
                                Hardly a question that anyone would take as a serious one. As carping, yes. A serious question, no.

                                But since you've at least feigned curiosity, it is part of my own effort to include more posts on theological matters or Christians and Christianity in general here at THEOLOGYweb. These include posts like

                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...-walter-hooper

                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e5#post1215026

                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...80#post1214914

                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e7#post1214311 (along with #201)

                                My posts in this thread but primarily #5:
                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...d-the-big-rock

                                And even, to a much less extent, including it in humor sections:
                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...79#post1214403


                                As well as a few in sections that you aren't privy to.



                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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