Applied Protology 201 Guidelines

This forum is for Christian creationists (YEC and OEC) only, and we ask that conversations be kept civil and with brotherly charity.

Deistic notions or even theistic evolutionary* notions are excluded from this forum.

This area is not to be used to bash organizations that promote a Cosmological view different from your own (ie AiG or RTB).

The purpose of this area is to provide a safe haven for fellow creationists to discuss their differences away from the hostility that normally accompanies such discussion. While disagreements are inevitable, the purpose of this forum is for fellow believers to discuss their differences in a civil manner. If you are unable to discuss differences in Cosmogony in a civil manner, then this forum is NOT for you!!!!!

There have been some issues as to who is allowed to post in this area and who is not. TheologyWeb had very specific goals and ideas in mind when setting up this area, and this is an attempt to clarify. This forum is for creationists only. This is not simply naturalism plus a belief in God or gods. So in other words, the question that a poster must ask himself is this: In what significant ways do my views on the origin of life and the universe differ from a non-theistic materialistic view practically speaking? If there are no significant differences, then this forum is not for you. The purpose is for persons who believe in a very active and significant “creation” process. All theists will by definition have some metaphysical elements, that is not the deciding factor here. Also simply a belief in the supernatural special creation of man or the infusion of a specially created soul is not the deciding factor. Of course those things are important, but that is not the sum and substance of the types of discussions here in which this would be a significant difference in the debate discussions.

Fairly speaking, we at TheologyWeb ask the posters not to look for “loopholes” or ways that their views could “fit.” If a poster frankly would not be considered a “creationist” in general vernacular, then we ask that such do not participate in this section in good faith. This is not done as a judgment or criticism against any theist whose views do not fall within the purview of this forum, it is simply to insure that the goals and intent of the spirit of the intentions of TheologyWeb are carried out. This is not said in maliciousness at all, and we totally ask for the respect of our members to the spirit in which this forum was created, for creationists (and ID advocates) as generally understood. There may certainly be Christians who do not qualify for this forum and that is not meant as a slur or insinuation against them. Salvation is not dependent upon our creation beliefs which are a secondary, in-house issue, though of course important.

Do not be offended or combative if a Moderator contacts you with a request for clarification of your beliefs and that sometimes the judgment calls of what is within the guidelines here can be gray. Please grant us the benefit of the doubt.

Due to the rash of recent "hostile" threads, the Cosmogony forum guidelines have been updated in an effort to 1) Clarify the purpose of this forum and 2) to prevent a repeat of the recent unpleasantries.

The purpose of the Cosmogony area has always been to provide a “safe haven” for civil discourse between fellow believers who happen to have opposing views on creation. It was our intent that the common ground of belief in deity and belief in some type of special creation would be enough to keep the discussion civil.

However, just the opposite has occurred. The Cosmogony area is one of the most contentious areas of TWeb. In order to return this area to “safe haven” it was designed to be, the area will be placed under greater moderator scrutiny until you guys lean to behave.

This means that personal attacks on posters, attacks on the Christianity of supporters of views that you do not hold, attacks on Christian organizations that support views that you do not hold, and hostile behavior in general will be subject to moderator intervention. However, what constitutes an “attack” is still up to the discretion of the moderators.

Posters who are habitually edited for hostile/aggressive post will have their access to this forum removed.

If you have any questions or comments, please contact the moderator(s) of this area.

Like everywhere else at Tweb, the regular rules apply:

Forum Rules: Here


*Theistic evolution is a position somewhere between evolution and creationism. It says that God created the substance of our universe and the guided it into what we have today via the evolutionary process.
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Abiogenesis, creation, and natural selection

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  • Abiogenesis, creation, and natural selection

    How did life originate? Most people believe that it began with a process called abiogenesis, the development of living organisms from nonliving mater. According to this belief a very simple life form came into existence and over millions of year its descendants changed through the process of evolution to produce the large variety of life that exists today.

    Not everyone believes in abiogenesis and evolution. Some people believe the Bible’s account of how life originated; it was created by God only a few thousand years ago.

    Believers in abiogenesis and creation both agree that new varieties of life are constantly being produced by a process called natural selection. An examination of how this process works might show whether abiogenesis or creation is the most likely starting point for it.

    When some individuals are better adapted to their environment than others they are more likely to survive and produce offspring. If members of a species are found in a variety of different environments the characteristics that aid survival may be different in different areas and over time the organisms in each location will come to differ from each other as well as from the parent species.

    Perhaps the most obvious example of natural selection is the many breeds of dogs that are all descended from a common ancestor. Some breeds are the result of deliberate breeding by people who wanted dogs that had specific characteristics. This is artificial selection rather than natural selection but it works the same way; dogs having the desired characteristic are allowed to reproduce but others are not.

    The selection process is similar to what a sculptor does when he makes a statue out of a block of marble; he cuts away all of the unwanted parts of the marble but doesn’t add any material from outside. Natural selection works by the elimination of unwanted or undesirable genes. No new genes are produced. The common ancestor of dogs must have possessed all the the genetic information that is found in all breeds of dogs. This process goes back further; dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals have a common ancestor that possessed greater genetic diversity.

    There is no way this process could have started with a simple one celled organism. (I mean simple in comparison with the life that exists today; even the simplest form of life is extremely complex.) Natural selection wouldn’t work because there would be too little to select from; it would be like a sculptor trying to make a large statue out of a grain of sand.

    But what about the Bible’s account of creation?
    And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.”

    And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:24-25 ESV

    God created different kinds of life. If each of these kinds had a large gene pool with the potential for producing many different varieties of descendants their creation would lead to the process of natural selection we see today.

    We aren’t told how many kinds there were but the number was small enough for Noah to take a pair of each kind onto the ark. Some people don’t believe the flood occurred because the ark wouldn’t have been big enough for all of the varieties of life that exist today. When you take the results of natural selection into account you can see that the number of animals Noah needed was very small. Here is one estimate of their numbers:

    The term natural selection was first used by Charles Darwin in Origin of Species, which was published in 1859. Our knowledge of genetics began with experiments performed by Gregor Mendel. The results of these experiments weren’t published until after his death in 1884 so Darwin knew nothing about them when he did the research for his book.

    Darwin saw natural selection taking place but because he didn’t understand how heredity works he misinterpreted what he saw. He thought that the process produced completely new characteristics and therefore was evidence that his theories about the origin of life were true. Today almost everyone shares this belief and few people realize that the things we have learned about genetics since then have produced evidence that the belief isn’t true.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    Not everyone believes in abiogenesis and evolution. Some people believe the Bible’s account of how life originated; it was created by God only a few thousand years ago.
    There is a large third category that you have omitted. Many of us believe the Bible's account of how life originated, but do not believe your interpretation of the Genesis account being limited to something that happened only a few thousand years ago.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?


    • #3
      . . . abiogenesis or creation . . .

      If abiogenesis is true it requires a cause for it. Ultimately in some way its cause was created by something that always was. What was always is eternal in nature. What is a cause is finite and temporal. In theology God has been defined as the uncaused cause [Cosmological Argument]. Which would be both eternal being uncaused and temporal being a cause.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV


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