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Applied Protology 201 Guidelines

This forum is for Christian creationists (YEC and OEC) only, and we ask that conversations be kept civil and with brotherly charity.

Deistic notions or even theistic evolutionary* notions are excluded from this forum.

This area is not to be used to bash organizations that promote a Cosmological view different from your own (ie AiG or RTB).


The purpose of this area is to provide a safe haven for fellow creationists to discuss their differences away from the hostility that normally accompanies such discussion. While disagreements are inevitable, the purpose of this forum is for fellow believers to discuss their differences in a civil manner. If you are unable to discuss differences in Cosmogony in a civil manner, then this forum is NOT for you!!!!!

There have been some issues as to who is allowed to post in this area and who is not. TheologyWeb had very specific goals and ideas in mind when setting up this area, and this is an attempt to clarify. This forum is for creationists only. This is not simply naturalism plus a belief in God or gods. So in other words, the question that a poster must ask himself is this: In what significant ways do my views on the origin of life and the universe differ from a non-theistic materialistic view practically speaking? If there are no significant differences, then this forum is not for you. The purpose is for persons who believe in a very active and significant “creation” process. All theists will by definition have some metaphysical elements, that is not the deciding factor here. Also simply a belief in the supernatural special creation of man or the infusion of a specially created soul is not the deciding factor. Of course those things are important, but that is not the sum and substance of the types of discussions here in which this would be a significant difference in the debate discussions.


Fairly speaking, we at TheologyWeb ask the posters not to look for “loopholes” or ways that their views could “fit.” If a poster frankly would not be considered a “creationist” in general vernacular, then we ask that such do not participate in this section in good faith. This is not done as a judgment or criticism against any theist whose views do not fall within the purview of this forum, it is simply to insure that the goals and intent of the spirit of the intentions of TheologyWeb are carried out. This is not said in maliciousness at all, and we totally ask for the respect of our members to the spirit in which this forum was created, for creationists (and ID advocates) as generally understood. There may certainly be Christians who do not qualify for this forum and that is not meant as a slur or insinuation against them. Salvation is not dependent upon our creation beliefs which are a secondary, in-house issue, though of course important.

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Due to the rash of recent "hostile" threads, the Cosmogony forum guidelines have been updated in an effort to 1) Clarify the purpose of this forum and 2) to prevent a repeat of the recent unpleasantries.


The purpose of the Cosmogony area has always been to provide a “safe haven” for civil discourse between fellow believers who happen to have opposing views on creation. It was our intent that the common ground of belief in deity and belief in some type of special creation would be enough to keep the discussion civil.

However, just the opposite has occurred. The Cosmogony area is one of the most contentious areas of TWeb. In order to return this area to “safe haven” it was designed to be, the area will be placed under greater moderator scrutiny until you guys lean to behave.

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*Theistic evolution is a position somewhere between evolution and creationism. It says that God created the substance of our universe and the guided it into what we have today via the evolutionary process.
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What is Dark Energy?

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  • What is Dark Energy?

    From a theistic perspective, what is dark energy? Is it the expansion of the universe that God preprogrammed into creation? And anyone know about dark matter? What other science questions would you love to theoretically ask God for the answer? No debating please! And I reserve the right to keep the thread from getting too weird.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  • #2
    Dark energy is the name given the energy to explain the local expansion of the universe being faster than the predicted Hubble expansion.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    • #3
      So, how much do we still not know about the universe?
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #4
        basically dark matter and energy are "fudge factors" used to explain holes in our current understanding and math regarding the universe. Neither has ever been detected. It will probably end up with new math and concepts that explain things like the expansion speed of the universe without dark matter or energy.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          basically dark matter and energy are "fudge factors" used to explain holes in our current understanding and math regarding the universe. Neither has ever been detected. It will probably end up with new math and concepts that explain things like the expansion speed of the universe without dark matter or energy.
          Makes sense. There is so much we still do not know. We may know a bit more than Job did, but God could still give us the "you don't know what you are talking about and there are things you still can't control or comprehend" lecture.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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          • #6
            Dark matter is what is called the needed and unseen mass in the universe. Dark matter has been imaged and given location by means its observed gravity. The gravitational lensing is measured and made into an image.
            260px-1e0657_scale.jpg
            The blue in the image is the imaged dark matter.
            Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2016, 09:20 AM.
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Dark matter is what is called the needed and unseen mass in the universe. Dark matter has been imaged and given location by means its observed gravity. The gravitational lensing is measured and made into an image.
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]20006[/ATTACH]
              The blue in the image is the imaged dark matter.
              no, it is, as you said, gravitational lensing effect, shown via computer graphics.

              They THEORIZE it is caused by Dark Matter. It still has not been observed or proven.

              Basically what you are saying is like astronomers using the charts of the retrograde orbits of the planets to prove that epicycles were real. Dark matter may or may not be real. But as of now it is just the explanation for there seeming to be more mass in the universe than we can directly see.


              Now as to CBW's question about how does it affect Christianity? I have no idea. Maybe it is the mass of the spirit world? Yeah that sounds crackpot.
              Last edited by Sparko; 12-13-2016, 10:05 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                no, it is, as you said, gravitational lensing effect, shown via computer graphics.

                They THEORIZE it is caused by Dark Matter. It still has not been observed or proven.

                Basically what you are saying is like astronomers using the charts of the retrograde orbits of the planets to prove that epicycles were real. Dark matter may or may not be real. But as of now it is just the explanation for there seeming to be more mass in the universe than we can directly see.


                Now as to CBW's question about how does it affect Christianity? I have no idea. Maybe it is the mass of the spirit world? Yeah that sounds crackpot.
                Spiral galaxies rotated like sold wheels instead of what was expected by law of gravity. Only by the addition of mass did the law of gravity as understood work as expected, the needed added mass was called dark matter.

                http://www.darkmatterphysics.com/Gal...l-galaxies.htm
                Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2016, 12:11 PM.
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Spiral galaxies rotated like sold wheels instead of what was expected by law of gravity. Only by the addition of mass did the law of gravity as understood work as expected, the needed added mass was called dark matter.
                  The extra mass could be caused by some other phenomena that we have not discovered yet, or some change in our calculation regarding gravity, or any other number of other things. Sure adding "dark matter" fixes the problem, but that is because it is a "fudge factor" and that is what fudge factors do. They provide a solution to a problem until the ACTUAL solution comes along. When astronomers believed in epicycles, they had to explain why planets seemed to go backwards in their orbits every so often. Well epicycles explained it perfectly and the math worked out exactly! Did that mean that epicycles were real? No. Because once they realize that the Earth went around the sun and so did the planets, then the retrograde problem went away because Earth was orbiting faster than the outer planets so they appeared to go backwards when we overtook them in our orbit.

                  Nobody knows what dark matter is. It is just a label for unknown mass needed to explain certain observations. I personally think it makes more sense to believe that it is a flaw in our science and formulas, than there is some mysterious matter out there that we can't see or detect in any way but it has mass and yet no other physicality.

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                  • #10
                    It's a lot like Vulcan, made up to make their models "work".

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      It's a lot like Vulcan, made up to make their models "work".
                      They are doing the same thing now with a search for a planet beyond Pluto to explain abberations in it's orbit. Could be real, could be fudge.

                      I was watching a show on the Science channel regarding Dark Matter and the scientists interviewed even said they had no idea what it was, and it could turn out to be nonexistent if a better theory came along. It is a fudge factor. It could be real or it could not be. I am leaning toward not, because it is too weird. Invisible mass? all around us, but we can't see it or measure it?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        They are doing the same thing now with a search for a planet beyond Pluto to explain abberations in it's orbit. Could be real, could be fudge.

                        I was watching a show on the Science channel regarding Dark Matter and the scientists interviewed even said they had no idea what it was, and it could turn out to be nonexistent if a better theory came along. It is a fudge factor. It could be real or it could not be. I am leaning toward not, because it is too weird. Invisible mass? all around us, but we can't see it or measure it?
                        We can generally only see matter because it radiates or reflects energy. Dark matter is only dark because it does not do so at detectable levels. We can infer its presence where it partially blocks light (interstellar dust clouds) or causes gravitational lensing (presumably something massive like a black hole). The fudge factor is whether or not there is enough of it to cause, e.g., the galactic rotational effects we observe.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          We can generally only see matter because it radiates or reflects energy. Dark matter is only dark because it does not do so at detectable levels. We can infer its presence where it partially blocks light (interstellar dust clouds) or causes gravitational lensing (presumably something massive like a black hole). The fudge factor is whether or not there is enough of it to cause, e.g., the galactic rotational effects we observe.
                          It supposedly makes up the majority of the universe. Yet we can't see it. It also means that it should be right here among us. So why can't we find it on Earth? or in our Solar System? Why does it only exist "out there?" Why are we so special that it doesn't exist right here?


                          also "dark" in Dark matter and energy doesn't refer to it being dark, but being "unknown"

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            It supposedly makes up the majority of the universe. Yet we can't see it. It also means that it should be right here among us. So why can't we find it on Earth? or in our Solar System? Why does it only exist "out there?" Why are we so special that it doesn't exist right here?
                            Matter in the solar system is generally close enough to the sun and reflective enough that it can eventually be spotted, and thus is not "dark."
                            also "dark" in Dark matter and energy doesn't refer to it being dark, but being "unknown"
                            Well, it's unknown because we can't see it - i.o.w., it's dark.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Matter in the solar system is generally close enough to the sun and reflective enough that it can eventually be spotted, and thus is not "dark."

                              Well, it's unknown because we can't see it - i.o.w., it's dark.
                              The problem is that scientists don't think it is "normal" matter that we just can't see. It takes up most of the universe I believe. So that means that we should see things that mass 2 to 3 times normal here in our own solar system (and on Earth!) and we don't.

                              Roughly 80 percent of the mass of the universe is made up of material that scientists cannot directly observe. Known as dark matter, this bizarre ingredient does not emit light or energy.

                              ...Most scientists think that dark matter is composed of non-baryonic matter. The lead candidate, WIMPS (weakly interacting massive particles), have ten to a hundred times the mass of a proton, but their weak interactions with "normal" matter make them difficult to detect. Neutralinos, massive hypothetical particles heavier and slower than neutrinos, are the foremost candidate, though they have yet to be spotted. The smaller neutral axion and the uncharched photinos are also potential placeholders for dark matter.

                              A third possibility exists — that the laws of gravity that have thus far successfully described the motion of objects within the solar system require revision.
                              http://www.space.com/20930-dark-matter.html
                              More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the universe.
                              https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysic...is-dark-energy

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