Belief a Conscious Choice?

[firstfloor]

I think people can hold protected beliefs. They are sincere in their beliefs but they decide to avoid detailed scrutiny of their beliefs in order to avoid damaging them. This strategy is taught by the ideology. Ideas that would damage their beliefs are called evil and it is morally justified to avoid evil ideas. It does not matter that the excluded ideas are empirically evil or not. The ideology typically has a list of evil ideas and concepts which it works against.

[JohnnyP]

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron" and who hides his gold at the end of the rainbow and if captured has to grant three wishes. So, assuming that you don't already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, choose to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

I believe there's a truth behind leprechauns, and genies too, they're similar in granting wishes if you release them. The Quran describes jinn being kind of like demons or angels only with free will, and that King Solomon had them under his control to grant his wishes.

So next question, the real one, can you just choose to believe in angels, demons, God?

Most can probably just decide to believe that there are higher powers in the universe. I don't buy the notion of being helpless to decide against lacking any type of any belief, for the most part.

I think it's a little harder to absolutely believe just by deciding, practice makes perfect. Like regular prayer for example, it may not grant you wishes but may grant you peace with whatever you get, good or bad. That's deciding to act and think in a way that builds faith. Whereas if you're constantly telling yourself and others there is no God, you're deciding to do things that erode belief.

Then I think God can force belief like with the elect, they are gonna believe no matter what. Or He can force disbelief, like hardening Pharaoh's heart.

In other words I don't think it's all a black and white thing.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

re: "If you show me convincing evidence of Leprechauns, I will decide whether to believe in them or not."

If beliefs can be obtained by simply consciously choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases, perhaps, but not necessary. However, even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had the convincing evidence? What would be the staie of your mind with regard to the issue in question at the moment you realized you had the convincing evidence?

Huh? nobody ever said they simply chose to believe something with no evidence. Everyone will need reasons to believe something. But when you take all of the evidence together, you have to choose whether to believe the evidence or not. Sometimes this is just automatic and happens in an instant, which is what I believe Jed was saying. It just "clicks" - and sometimes you have to sit down and weigh the evidence and decide.


I assume you believe in evolution. Did you just wake up one day and believe in it without any evidence? Or did you read and study the evidence for and against it and decide that the evidence for it was more compelling than the evidence against it, and then chose to believe in evolution?

re: "Nobody ever claimed to just choose to believe for absofreakingly no reason at all."

But could they? And anyway, in this topic there is a reason - and that reason is to demonstrate one's ability to consciously choose to believe something.

Choosing because you believe the evidence is a conscious choice. Other people look at the same evidence and may decide not to believe it. So the evidence doesn't force you to believe.

[Paprika]

Paprika,

re: "I would say it is about Jesus being the Messiah, the Son of God."

OK, so then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that there is a chance that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God - even though they have doubts about it - should not perish but have everlasting life"?

Why should it be written in such a manner?

[rstrats]

Paprika,

re: "I would say it is about Jesus being the Messiah, the Son of God."

OK, so then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that there is a chance that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God - even though they have doubts about it - should not perish but have everlasting life"?

[Paprika]

Paprika,

re: "No, because John 3:16 isn't about belief in the existence of the Son."


What is "...whosoever believeth in him..." about?

I would say it is about Jesus being the Messiah, the Son of God.

[rstrats]

Paprika,

re: "No, because John 3:16 isn't about belief in the existence of the Son."


What is "...whosoever believeth in him..." about?

[rstrats]

Jedidiah,

re: "When I came to Christ I did not choose to believe, not consciously at any rate. All the pieces fell together at one moment and I realized that I did believe."

You're one of the few people that seems to understand the nature of belief.

[rstrats]

Sparko,

re: "If you show me convincing evidence of Leprechauns, I will decide whether to believe in them or not."

If beliefs can be obtained by simply consciously choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases, perhaps, but not necessary. However, even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had the convincing evidence? What would be the staie of your mind with regard to the issue in question at the moment you realized you had the convincing evidence?



re: "Nobody ever claimed to just choose to believe for absofreakingly no reason at all."

But could they? And anyway, in this topic there is a reason - and that reason is to demonstrate one's ability to consciously choose to believe something.



re: "and thanks for ignoring most of my post."

You're welcome. At the time I figured you'd be thankful for my not pointing out your failure to be responsive to my request in the OP.

[shunyadragon]

A conscious choice most often involves research and weighing between two or more choices to decide which one is most likely/probable given the evidence. Occasionally, there may be an epiphany event that pushes someone one way or the other...

I believe I have for the most part and I have gone through a process since my late teens make a deliberate effort to evaluate and understand different beliefs and their variations. I had a Martial Arts teacher early that inspired me to question. He was a Buddhist and passed on the concepts impermanence and 'nothing is necessary.

My quest in a way is reflected in my history on Tweb. My interest here is in part wanting to have more insight into 'Why people believe as they do, and what is their justification for their belief system?'

The philosophical issue deeply involved here is 'What is Will? and is Will Free? My conclusion is 'We have a Will, but it is not necessarily 'Free.' There is a potential of Free Will, but it is illusive. My search in part came about by a satori, or sort of awakening when I realized that considering the diversity of human beliefs, and our fallibility we are most likely wrong about what we believe, and especially the beliefs we hold most dear.

The Vedic wise saying plays a role in this: The elephant is held by a chain when it is young, so that it may be securely held by a string as an adult.

[Jedidiah]

A fascinating question, rstrats. A lot of it probably depends on definition. I am inclined to say that I do not really decide what to believe in most cases. When I am convinced of something, I believe it. You might say that choice comes in with conviction, but if so it is not really a conscious choice for me. It sort of happens at an instant usually, something somewhere in my mind flips like a switch and I now believe.

Well you consider the evidence for and against something, then you decide whether to believe it or not. Everyone does it.

Think of a court of law. You hear evidence for someone being guilty and evidence for them being innocent. Then the jury weighs the evidence to make a decision.

In a court of law things are a bit different. You consider the evidence and must choose one or the other. You may not be absolutely certain so belief here is more a tentative one.

I can only speak from my experience, of course. Most of my life from grade school on the main thrust of my interest was to understand the truth of how the world fit together. I did not choose to believe that the world did fit together in a way that could be understood - I just "knew" that it did from living in it. I started with science, moved on to various different efforts to understand that truth.

When I came to Christ I did not choose to believe, not consciously at any rate. All the pieces fell together at one moment and I realized that I did believe. Once you know that something is true there is no choice to believe. That has already taken place in the process of learning.

My experience and my opinion.

[Paprika]

So then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that there is a chance that He exists, even though they have doubts about it, should not perish but have everlasting life"?

No, because John 3:16 isn't about belief in the existence of the Son.

[Sparko]

Paprika,

re: "Most of my beliefs aren't held with absolute certainty, so I find your conception of 'belief' unrealistic."


So then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that there is a chance that He exists, even though they have doubts about it, should not perish but have everlasting life"?

belief is not "thinking there is a chance he exists" - but neither is it certainty. About the only thing you can be certain of is math.

Do you believe George Washington was the first US president? Why?
Do you believe it or just think there was a chance he was?

[rstrats]

Paprika,

re: "Most of my beliefs aren't held with absolute certainty, so I find your conception of 'belief' unrealistic."


So then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that there is a chance that He exists, even though they have doubts about it, should not perish but have everlasting life"?

[Sparko]

Sparko,

re: "I don't see the problem with making a conscious choice to believe something."

Then assuming you don't already have a belief in Leprechauns, you should have no trouble in demonstrating your ability as requested in the OP.

If you show me convincing evidence of Leprechauns, I will decide whether to believe in them or not.

Nobody ever claimed to just choose to believe for absofreakingly no reason at all. But when it comes down to it, you have to decide whether to accept the evidence for or against something as true or not and then make a decision to believe in it.

and thanks for ignoring most of my post.