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Belief a Conscious Choice?

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Sparko,
    re: "How do you know YOU have evidence for something?"

    Hey, I asked you first.
    Do you understand what evidence is? It is information that leads you to believe in something.

    Evidence can be good or bad. That is why we have some people who believe in UFOs or Leprechauns. Personally I don't find the evidence for either to be convincing. Therefore I can't "just choose" to believe in them for no reason at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • mossrose
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    mossrose,
    re: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

    And once you have a proven proof, then what with regard to the issue in question?
    Don't know. Haven't even read this whole thread. Just quoting a stupid man.

    By the way, if you would like to quote someone in your post, just click on "reply with quote" on their post and it will automatically open up a box with their post in quotes for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • rstrats
    replied
    mossrose,
    re: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

    And once you have a proven proof, then what with regard to the issue in question?

    Leave a comment:


  • rstrats
    replied
    Sparko,
    re: "How do you know YOU have evidence for something?"

    Hey, I asked you first.

    Leave a comment:


  • mossrose
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    How do you know YOU have evidence for something?
    Because a famous Canadian PM once said,

    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...eti145285.html


    "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Sparko,
    re: "But nobody has argued for belief without evidence."

    So I ask again; how do you know when you have evidence? And once you realize that you have evidence, what is the state of your mind at that moment with regard to the truth about the issue in question?
    How do you know YOU have evidence for something?

    Leave a comment:


  • rstrats
    replied
    Sparko,
    re: "But nobody has argued for belief without evidence."

    So I ask again; how do you know when you have evidence? And once you realize that you have evidence, what is the state of your mind at that moment with regard to the truth about the issue in question?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Sparko,
    re: "...it is a conscious choice...based on evidence..."

    If beliefs can be engendered by simply choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had it?
    But nobody has argued for belief without evidence. That is why your thread and OP is a strawman. You come up with something nobody has argued for, then dare them to prove it. It is ridiculous.

    Leave a comment:


  • rstrats
    replied
    Sparko,
    re: "...it is a conscious choice...based on evidence..."

    If beliefs can be engendered by simply choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had it?



    re: "...your 'test' of telling [asking] someone to just arbitrarily decide to believe in leprechauns is a strawman."

    A strawman for what?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Sparko,
    re: "The very fact that rstats is on tweb debating his viewpoints shows that he believes that people can choose to change their beliefs."

    With regard to your above referenced statement I would agree if the wording were changed to: "The very fact that rstrats is on tweb debating his viewpoints seems to show that he accepts the possibility that people's beliefs can/may change when presented with certain ideas about an issue."



    re: "He is trying to get them to do that with every argument he makes on any subject on this site."


    Isn't that pretty much what most folks are trying to do -either overtly or covertly - when "discussing" differing opinions?
    Yes, and it works. People change their minds and beliefs. And it is a conscious choice. It is not a random choice either, but based on evidence (the "discussion" in this example)

    You don't just wake up and say "Today I think I will choose to belief rstats" for no reason. So your "test" of telling someone to just arbitrarily decide to believe in leprechauns is a strawman.

    Leave a comment:


  • rstrats
    replied
    Sparko,
    re: "The very fact that rstats is on tweb debating his viewpoints shows that he believes that people can choose to change their beliefs."

    With regard to your above referenced statement I would agree if the wording were changed to: "The very fact that rstrats is on tweb debating his viewpoints seems to show that he accepts the possibility that people's beliefs can/may change when presented with certain ideas about an issue."



    re: "He is trying to get them to do that with every argument he makes on any subject on this site."


    Isn't that pretty much what most folks are trying to do -either overtly or covertly - when "discussing" differing opinions?

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Not all beliefs are by choice. Truth is not a choice. We may choose to believe a genuine truth, not yet knowing that it is a truth which once correctly understood cannot be denied. Truth is independent of our belief in it. Truth is the sole reason we believe anything, or at least should be. Yet, some of us, may yet believe things to be true which are not true. And not know it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    The very fact that rstats is on tweb debating his viewpoints shows that he believes that people can choose to change their beliefs. He is trying to get them to do that with every argument he makes on any subject on this site.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Adrift,
    re: "Why are you stuck on leprechauns?"

    I merely suggested them because I thought that you probably didn't already have a belief in them.
    But I already gave you examples of beliefs that I changed. What was wrong with them?


    re: ". I see no benefit in believing in leprechauns."

    But can you, even though you see no a benifit to it?
    Accepting a belief in leprechauns would be delusional, and the reason why it's delusional is because, all things being equal, there's nothing to justify the belief, and there's no impetus in accepting the belief. Now, I've seen people hold delusional beliefs, so I know it's possible, but I hope that I'm not so gullible (though that too may be a delusion).

    Or are you saying that a new belief can only be engendered when you see some benifit to having the belief? - i.e., that it can't be done simply as an exercise in demonstrating your ability?
    Accepting beliefs as some sort of magic trick seems inherently harmful. Can it be done? I think so, but I'm not about to do it, especially not for some stranger on the internet. I choose my beliefs based on their overall positive benefits on my life. And I choose to choose beliefs that I feel can be justified in some way. Take belief in God for instance. You're probably familiar with Pascal's Wager. Often it's presented something like this: If God exists, then you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing in him. But if God doesn't exists then you've lost nothing. One of the things that a lot of people don't know about the wager, though, is that this assumes that the justification for belief relies on all things being equal. That is, it's only applicable to those who are stuck at a stage where they could justly believe or disbelieve in God either way. The wager is not for the person who finds the arguments for God overwhelmingly less compelling than not.

    When I got over my fear of heights, I was justified in changing my beliefs because I knew that most people who worked on roofs did not die. The chances of me falling off the roof and dieing was relatively low, and so when I made the decision to stop being afraid, that justification on top of the benefit of doing work without fear, factored into my change of mind.

    I imagine that if I knew the context of those who told you that belief is a conscious choice, that the ones who are saying that are thinking of belief much in the same way that I am. They're not thinking of a person who can start believing in leprechauns on the fly. They're thinking of free will decisions to step out in faith, and to accept beliefs that are justified and beneficial.

    Again, I highly recommend you reading the book You Are Not Your Brain. It's filled with people who changed their beliefs, and changed them for the better. I think it'll really help you understand this whole subject in another way, and maybe show you that you too are able to change your beliefs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Adrift,
    re: "Why are you stuck on leprechauns?"

    I merely suggested them because I thought that you probably didn't already have a belief in them.


    re: ". I see no benefit in believing in leprechauns."

    But can you, even though you see no a benifit to it? Or are you saying that a new belief can only be engendered when you see some benifit to having the belief? - i.e., that it can't be done simply as an exercise in demonstrating your ability?
    People have already told you that changing beliefs is not just a random decision, but a decision based on evidence. You don't just say "Gee today I am going to believe in Leprechauns" and believe. But I am sure that you have chosen to believe things based on evidence presented to you. You looked at the evidence, decided it was trustworthy, and then chose to believe it. Your leprechaun test is just pure silliness. But I am willing to bet if you saw a little green man and followed him to a pot of gold, you would probably believe in them, huh?

    Leave a comment:

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