Announcement

Collapse

Psychology 101 Guidelines

Welcome to Tweb's couch. Please join us in discussing the joys of the human psyche. Watch in wonderment as the Tweb crowd has violent mood swings. help us understand what makes us tick.

Like everywhere else at Tweb our decorum rules apply.
See more
See less

The Psychological Impact of Complementarian/Patriarchal Theology

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Psychological Impact of Complementarian/Patriarchal Theology

    This article puts forth the idea that gender based discrimination against woman such as in Complementarianism (which is actually Patriarchy) can actually negatively change a woman's brain and yield an unhealthy self-concept. I've never posted in this forum before and I don't know if there are any psychologists who would like to give input.

    As for me, the psychological impact of "Complementarianism"/Patriarchy on me personally is my life right now. I experientially agree that the gender discriminative theology of Complementarianism "changes the way the brain processes information, disrupting, for example, the regions involved in planning and decision-making. Discrimination actually changes women’s brains". Do you agree with the article and do you think it can be reversed?

    After 30 years of Christ-devotion, studying and ministering to individuals and groups through Bible studies, I've recently stepped out of all ministry that is related to "church" to try and stop the impact I've felt has been happening to me. I've gone from a confident woman, organizing Bible studies, writing curriculum for teens and adults, leading at women's retreats to now struggling everyday with a broken heart over a church that keeps rejecting me over and over in various ways due to my gender. I felt I had to put up boundaries, to finally stop.

    And yet...I cannot leave the relationships, the people who look up to me (and my family) in my church. To leave would cause more damage. So I go to church...a shell of the person I used to be, at this point I don't even know if I could return to the "planning and decision-making" processes that used to function effortlessly. I'm so torn...and now I wonder if the changes to my brain can be reversed. And what would that look like. I just don't know.

    If you have knowledge in psychology, what do you think?

    https://www.cbeinternational.org/blo...-womens-health

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/dis...-mental-health
    Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

    Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

    Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

  • #2
    Your problem isn't patriarchy. Your problem is pride.

    There are two things you need to do:

    1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

    2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

    All else is immaterial; stop fixating on it.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Your problem isn't patriarchy. Your problem is pride.

      There are two things you need to do:

      1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

      2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

      All else is immaterial; stop fixating on it.
      Are you saying that I am disobeying God by having these questions? Are you saying that the suffering I am experiencing is a result of my own sin? Is my suffering due to the effects of patriarchy or due to my own sin or do you deny that I am even suffering at all? How can you tell?

      Do you deny that anyone can actually suffer from a theology that tells them that they are permanently incapable and comprehensively forbidden from being trusted with important responsibilities and decisions in the church and home (even if they concern her directly) and that they CANNOT fully contribute their gifts of leadership no matter how much education or Spirit-leading they have? Patriarchy robs me from fully living out my call. Do you deny that this can be depressing? How can you say that wanting to fulfill the call I hear from God is actually pride? Are you saying that I couldn't possibly be hearing God's call because I am a woman? And you don't think this would be depressing?????

      You have thrown some serious personal charges at me and I'd like it if you will explain them. I am amazed that you can think you know so much about me personally to lob these personal charges against my Christianity.

      Do you make these accusations against me as someone trained in psychology? Or as someone dedicated to patriarchy who denies that the theology can actually have a negative psychological impact? What do you think of the article? Does that therapist who wrote the article have pride, too? Do you believe egalitarians suffer from pride by default of their theology?
      Last edited by Wildflower; 09-16-2017, 03:04 PM.
      Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

      Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

      Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

      Comment


      • #4
        OBP, how is "telling me what my problem is" not a disruption to this thread? Since you have personally attacked me and unsubstantially accused me of sinful conduct (pride + not following the two greatest commandments) instead of answering the OP in any way, perhaps this part of the thread that has been derailed by you should be placed in the Poop Deck or Padded Room.
        Last edited by Wildflower; 09-16-2017, 03:45 PM.
        Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

        Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

        Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Wildflower View Post
          Are you saying that I am disobeying God by having these questions? Are you saying that the suffering I am experiencing is a result of my own sin?
          All suffering is a direct result of our sin.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            All suffering is a direct result of our sin.
            Are you an advocate of victim blaming/shaming? Or are you saying there are no real victims because everyone is equally to blame for their suffering? I've heard of this approach before. It happened in my past Sovreign Grace Church. Victims of pedophiles and their perpetrators were put in the same room and the victim told they are just as much a sinner and they need to forgive the perpetrator. They were advised not to call the police. And the perpetrator kept on abusing. Same with domestic violence with the women being advised not to call the police but to keep on trying to win their husbands by submitting to the abuse. I guess if everyone is to blame for their own suffering and there is no difference in degree or type of sinful conduct perpetrated against another individual, why even call for help? I guess we all deserve our suffering because of our sin so there's no sense calling it out and standing up to it.

            Is that the best way to also counsel rape victims, too, do you think? Or victims of clergy sex scandals?
            Last edited by Wildflower; 09-16-2017, 04:18 PM.
            Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

            Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

            Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jedidiah, I noticed you clicked "amen" on OBP's post that told me my "problem" was pride and a lack of following the two greatest commandments. I'd like to know in what way my OP was pridefully sinful showing a lack of following the two great commandments. These are serious charges, you must know. I think such a claim should be substantiated, don't you? It's not even trying to get the speck out of my eye, its just making an unsubstantiated observation and then leaving. Which is quite irresponsible especially considering the weight of yours and OBP's presence here as moderators on Tweb.
              Last edited by Wildflower; 09-16-2017, 06:35 PM.
              Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

              Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

              Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wildflower View Post
                Are you saying that I am disobeying God by having these questions?
                Not specifically, no.
                Are you saying that the suffering I am experiencing is a result of my own sin?
                That you consider not being in a position of leadership 'suffering' is an indication of your own sin.
                Is my suffering due to the effects of patriarchy or due to my own sin or do you deny that I am even suffering at all? How can you tell?
                Oh, I don't doubt that you're suffering; your anguished posts are indicative of that.
                Do you deny that anyone can actually suffer from a theology that tells them that they are permanently incapable and comprehensively forbidden from being trusted with important responsibilities and decisions in the church and home (even if they concern her directly) and that they CANNOT fully contribute their gifts of leadership no matter how much education or Spirit-leading they have? Patriarchy robs me from fully living out my call. Do you deny that this can be depressing? How can you say that wanting to fulfill the call I hear from God is actually pride? Are you saying that I couldn't possibly be hearing God's call because I am a woman? And you don't think this would be depressing?????
                I'm saying that you resent not being in a position of leadership, because your pride says you should be in one. That your resentment leads to depression is not surprising. You may well be hearing a call, but it's possible you're mistaking its source.
                You have thrown some serious personal charges at me and I'd like it if you will explain them. I am amazed that you can think you know so much about me personally to lob these personal charges against my Christianity.
                The only charge I have leveled is that of pride. Your indignant response shows I seem to have scored a bullseye.
                Do you make these accusations against me as someone trained in psychology?
                Nope. Simply as one who has some experience in observing the human condition.
                Or as someone dedicated to patriarchy who denies that the theology can actually have a negative psychological impact?
                Patriarchy is neither here nor there. Your problem with it is, at most, a symptom of your true issue.
                What do you think of the article? Does that therapist who wrote the article have pride, too?
                I think that the focus on self-esteem is disastrously mis-guided. It is wholly self-centered, when we should be wholly focused on others (that's the point, after all, of the "greatest commandments" upon which all others hang).
                Do you believe egalitarians suffer from pride by default of their theology?
                No.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Not specifically, no.

                  That you consider not being in a position of leadership 'suffering' is an indication of your own sin.


                  Oh, I don't doubt that you're suffering; your anguished posts are indicative of that.

                  I'm saying that you resent not being in a position of leadership, because your pride says you should be in one. That your resentment leads to depression is not surprising. You may well be hearing a call, but it's possible you're mistaking its source.
                  So no woman could hear a call to leadership? And if they do they are not hearing from God? So Deborah....

                  Would you have so easily judged a man if he heard a call to leadership? No, you would have encouraged him to get the education and work for it. But, because I am a woman, you have automatically dismissed me and called me prideful. In a man its called "obeying your call" for a woman its called, "pride". Yeah, I've heard it before, its nothing new.

                  The only charge I have leveled is that of pride. Your indignant response shows I seem to have scored a bullseye.
                  I resisted your accusation because you essentially accused me of pride because I am a woman who hears a call and is sad that she is not accepted by fellow Christians and cannot fulfill her call even though there are several examples in Scripture of women leaders. You were wrong to do so, so I spoke up. Or, do you think all women should just remain silent when they are accused of pride because they are not accepted by the predominantly patriarchal church to fulfill their call in Christ? I could have a Ph.D. in Theology and still not be accepted to teach a Bible study at the local church, all the while surrounded by a cloud of female leader witnesses from Scripture encouraging me on.

                  Nope. Simply as one who has some experience in observing the human condition.
                  Your observations are abusive to someone you don't even know, prejudiced based on your complementarian (sexist) theology. This is very wrong.


                  I think that the focus on self-esteem is disastrously mis-guided. It is wholly self-centered, when we should be wholly focused on others (that's the point, after all, of the "greatest commandments" upon which all others hang).
                  No.
                  You have so much to learn but, as a woman, I'm obviously not the one to teach you.
                  Last edited by Wildflower; 09-16-2017, 08:26 PM.
                  Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                  Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                  Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A dictionary definition of "sexist" to hopefully head off any objections to my usage of the word:

                    From Merriam-Webster:

                    Definition of sexism

                    1 :prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially :discrimination against women
                    2 :behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
                    Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                    Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                    Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The psychological impact of egalitarianism is that people stop breeding and eventually get overrun and destroyed by virile patriarchal societies.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wildflower View Post
                        So no woman could hear a call to leadership? And if they do they are not hearing from God? So Deborah....
                        I haven't said anything of the sort. Let me know when you're interested in discussing what I"m saying, not what you're imagining I"m saying.
                        Would you have so easily judged a man if he heard a call to leadership? No, you would have encouraged him to get the education and work for it. But, because I am a woman, you have automatically dismissed me and called me prideful. In a man its called "obeying your call" for a woman its called, "pride". Yeah, I've heard it before, its nothing new.
                        I'm not discussing your issues with leadership, I'm discussing your issue of pride.
                        I resisted your accusation because you essentially accused me of pride because I am a woman who hears a call and is sad that she is not accepted by fellow Christians and cannot fulfill her call even though there are several examples in Scripture of women leaders. You were wrong to do so, so I spoke up. Or, do you think all women should just remain silent when they are accused of pride because they are not accepted by the predominantly patriarchal church to fulfill their call in Christ?
                        As it happens, my accusation of pride has nothing whatsoever to do with you wanting to lead, and everything to do with how you're expressing that desire.
                        Your observations are abusive to someone you don't even know, prejudiced based on your complementarian (sexist) theology. This is very wrong.
                        If my observations are abusive, it's because you're too full of pride to accept correction. If a guy used the same language you're doing here, on whatever topic, I'd accuse him of pride as well. Stop imagining this has anything to do with your sex.
                        You have so much to learn but, as a woman, I'm obviously not the one to teach you.
                        I have learned much from women. Again, your problem is not patriarchy. It's pride.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the bizarre part about this thread is that I already posted stats in the other one showing women's happiness has declined the more egalitarian society has gotten. I suspect a big part of why so many women today are miserable and psychologically damaged is because their instincts pull in one direction and the culture itself pulls in another. But adhering to social norms is a much stronger impulse for women than men (who can survive a lot easier as rogues), so they end up being pulled in two contradictory directions as a result. At no time in history have women been more free to do whatever they want and yet women like Wildflower still find something to complain about, and lo and behold, it's the supposed severe restrictions on her freedom she is experiencing that is causing her angst.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            wildflower, as in your other threads you seem to be looking for things to be angry about and be a victim. No matter what anyone says, you take it as a personal attack and somehow about you being a woman. One Bad Pig said your problem is pride, yet you took it as an attack on you as a woman. You really need to step back and stop seeing everything as about your gender and as an attack. Pay attention to what people are actually saying instead of trying to find some hidden agenda behind their words.

                            Just because we are men doesn't make us the enemy or women haters. Nor do we think women cannot be leaders. If you were here before, you know theologyweb was owned and run by Dee Dee Warren, a woman. None of us had a problem with that and now that she has turned it over to us, one of the owners is still a woman, mossrose, and she has an equal standing with the other owners like me. I have a several female bosses at work. Not a problem.

                            stop living life with a chip on your shoulder. Even if you have been victimized, continuing to see yourself as a victim just makes you feel inferior and angry. Jesus was a victim but he lived his live free of hate and shared love for others instead.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 09-17-2017, 08:00 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Theologically, I think the 'women as inferior' is an unsustainable position - it simply is not supported by Scripture taken comprehensively.

                              Complimentarianism is NOT patriarchy - it could work just as well from a matriarchal POV. It is a response to legitimate objections to the theological problems with how women have been treated historically. It's not necessarily the best response - it has issues - but to call it patriarchal is unfair and misguided.

                              I disagree with OBP - I don't think your problem is pride - it's obsession. Pride may play a role or it could be other factors - I don't know you well enough to tell. I do know you aren't here to debate - you're here to preach. Sparky is correct, you aren't willing to listen to anything that disagrees with your premises. That's sad - you're making some silly mistakes because you are so obsessed with a system that has been on life support for twenty years.

                              I suspect hatred is an issue with you - anger certainly is - because you are picking rather senseless fights. The guys here don't hate you because you're a girl - they are getting annoyed because you trash them constantly. I'm getting annoyed because it's a one note song - and I actually agree with the central premise! Mind you, I think you argue it atrociously - truth matters much more than how I feel about it - but I don't see Scripture supporting a true patriarchy so on that point I agree.

                              As for the thread premise, who cares? It sounds like another self serving study done to beat a dead horse. IF - which I doubt - God truly wishes that we obey men, then that's exactly what we should do regardless of the psychological impact. The important question isn't how does it impact us - it's IS THIS TRUE.

                              Neither male nor female... All the same in Christ Jesus - nope, doesn't appear to be true. So, that being the case, the problem isn't theology - it's erroneous theology. If that's the case, you're making the problem worse by arguing from psychology and feelings rather than theology and Scripture.

                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Comment

                              widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                              Working...
                              X