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  • Originally posted by eider View Post

    'Cos yor so igerant about them basics.
    Cool.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eider View Post

      Well you would need to look it all up, yes.
      However, let's apply IQ to a simple situation.

      If a gun can shoot a ball 250 yards when horizontal to the ground, how much further can it go if the barrel is elevated?
      If this is supposed to be a physics question you'd need to provide more information.

      To help you with this, please inspect 'long range gun sight' pictures to give you an idea of how elevated for long range shooting. You can then apply muzzle velocities and shot weights to your equations for maximum travel.

      A superior IQ is going to cruise through all this .......... so no problem here!
      Are you referring to a link or an image you provided earlier?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eider View Post

        I quoted a post of rogue's....... Rogue could tell you where he got it.


        I did not bring that graph on to the forum, rogue may have posted it on a parallel thread?

        I didn't need to look up a picture for such info. My experience was enough.
        Um, your memory is failing you again. You brought up reference tables for shotgun slugs going a mile, rogue asked for a source, and then you provided the post in question. It wasn't a quote of someone else's post either.

        Originally posted by eider View Post

        You can't be that thick, rogue.
        A shotgun's range is set by it's charge and it's shot-size, so as soon as you gave a range you looked daft.
        Then you mentioned 'chokes' which you think extends the range of shot ...it does not ..... it just tightens the spread of shot.

        So the range increases with the shot size, all the way to a solid ball or slug. Balls can travel further than slugs because of their shape, as long as the wadding is efficient.

        Do not display your ignorance about shotguns.


        EDIT:- I just accessed a muzzleloader's foruim and I read this, by Paulvallandighea.
        I've known this stuff since I was a kid......... :-

        I once was being fired at by some idiot with a high powered, 22 cal. CF rifle, from Missour across the Mississippi River while I was hunting along the shore in Illinois. To discourage his inclinations, I fired three foster style slugs out of my shotgun at Missouri, and where I thought his shots were coming from. The local men I was with told me that the river was about a half a mile across at that point, more or less. My slugs must have done to him what his little bullets were doing to me, as he stopped shooting, and ran away. We saw him running against the skyline through a gap in the trees on the Missouri shoreline.

        The few reference tables I have on shotgun slug maximum distances show either 1/2 mile, or now 1 mile with the sabot slugs. I think your musket " ball " is more likely to behave like the older style " Foster slug."
        You also falsely accused rogue06 of saying that a choke increases the range of a shotgun which wasn't in his post that you were responding to at all. The source he cited merely stated that they were using a shotgun with a choke and the range that it had.

        rogue's following post asks you for a source of shotgun slugs having a range of a mile and then you introduce the graph.

        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Wow.

        Post these supposed reference tables where shotgun slugs are going a mile.

        Everything I can find has them with a maximum range of roughly 400 yards and an effective range being a small fraction of that.

        It's actually one of the reasons they are often recommended for home defense. Their short range.


        Btw, Paulvallandighea's slugs were not even making it across the river. The shooter on the other side just knew he was being shot at and got the heck out of there.
        In response to his request for said reference charts you posted a picture of your monitor, and you didn't even give the source for where you got the chart.

        Originally posted by eider View Post

        You keep reminding me of that kid at your school who couldn't understand simple stuff.
        Fortunately somebody has made a chart which may help you to understand how larger shot can travel further.
        As the weight of shoot increases so the range extends, and this chart shows how air density makes a difference.

        I'm hoping that you can learn from all this...........

        P1030015.JPG
        rogue then called you out for not giving the source for the chart.

        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Your unsourced chart is claiming that pellets can travel a mile

        I've actually been shot at by an old farmer using buckshot standing on a hill not much if any more than hundred yards away during a, um, business meeting conducted in a field. Yeah, don't ask.

        The "pellets" hit a pickup with about the same force as if you scooped up some gravel and tossed it underhanded at something.

        I won't say how we responded but it definitely put the fear of God in him as he turned and hightailed it over the ridge. The man was literally so bowlegged I could see the setting sun between his legs.

        In short, your memory is massively failing you with regard to what happened in that thread. It's not hard to go back and read the order of events.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by eider View Post
          You've been googling again!
          YOu should try applying that superior IQ of yours to the simple physics of guns.
          Canon are great-guns. You need to research the distances that cannon could throw balls.


          Ha ha! So your 40 yards max has increased by 6 times, so we are moving forward.

          Now all you have to do is research about the effective range of rifled muzzle loaders firing ball in the late 18th century.....then you can apply your IQ to the question of how far the ball can travel if it misses its target.

          You might also research the question of how far various sizes of shot can travel in shot at a high elevation.

          Just apply your superior IQ.
          Actually, given my interest in ancient firearms, I was already aware of her "pocket pistol" although I did have to Google its exact stats.

          The fact that the tallest point in Britain is nowhere even remotely close to 12,000' your attempt to bring altitude into it falls flat. FWIU, it was a shore gun, hence legends about how, when conditions were right, that it could reach France. In reality it's range was roughly a mile.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

            It depends on the slug type, shotgun model, barrel length, whether or not the barrel is rifled, wind conditions, angle of fire, etc. 100 yards is the maximum practical range for many 12 gauge rifles with a slug round. Beyond that accuracy and damage falls off rather quickly. At around 250 yards, the slug will hit the ground if the rifle is level due to gravity.

            Sparko I found the source of the image eider used in the other thread where the topic came up.
            I made a pretty big mistake in reading that chart. That doesn't even go the full 100 yards at a 0-degree firing angle. Here is a chart with a Sabot slug at various firing angles. First at 0 degrees.



            That gets just past 100 yards level to the ground. With the chart the first noticeable difference required a 50-degree firing angle.



            At that angle, you get around 175 yards. Let's go a bit higher.


            This is a 75-degree angle shot and gets us around 380 yards. The higher you aim it the less it takes to increase distance, at least according to these graphs.



            Above is an 80-degree firing angle. It will go past 400 yards but judging by the arc, it might get to around 600 yards, if that.


            This one is at an 85-degree firing angle. It will likely go much further but you aren't going to be firing at this kind of angle for any practical use.


            This last one is at an 89-degree angle, which is nearly straight up. I don't think this calculator understands firing angles beyond a certain point. The reason I say that is the arc it displays. At 89 degrees it should have an angle nearly perpendicular to the ground. You can try out the calculator set for a Remington 12-gauge shotgun with Sabot rounds.

            It looks fairly accurate for firing angles up to 50 degrees but after that, it starts getting a bit odd. Still, it doesn't reach anywhere near a mile.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Actually, given my interest in ancient firearms, I was already aware of her "pocket pistol" although I did have to Google its exact stats.
              You didn't find any 'exact' stats for that gun's range.
              I shouldn't think for one moment that that delightful piece has been loaded with a full charge since Napoleonic days. In fact I've never seen a great gun fired with a full charge in my lifetime.
              The QE1 pistol is an extremely valuable gun nearly 500 years old.

              The fact that the tallest point in Britain is nowhere even remotely close to 12,000' your attempt to bring altitude into it falls flat. FWIU, it was a shore gun, hence legends about how, when conditions were right, that it could reach France. In reality it's range was roughly a mile.
              I haven't mentioned altitude at all....... nowhere.
              And in reality nobody has fired that gun with a full charge in a couple of centuries......... it's much too special, the range far too distant and risks are much too high.


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                If this is supposed to be a physics question you'd need to provide more information.
                We use IQ to make a mug of tea, catch a bus, calculate a shopping bill.

                Are you referring to a link or an image you provided earlier?
                NO....... I'm referring to the elevation that is needed for a long range target rifle, and a very good example is the military Lee Enfield full bore open sight.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                  I made a pretty big mistake in reading that chart. That doesn't even go the full 100 yards at a 0-degree firing angle. Here is a chart with a Sabot slug at various firing angles. First at 0 degrees.

                  That cannot be right, your diagram shows that the gun is not horizontal!
                  It's clearly elevated.

                  You shouldn't believe in everytghing that you read or see.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                    I made a pretty big mistake in reading that chart. That doesn't even go the full 100 yards at a 0-degree firing angle. Here is a chart with a Sabot slug at various firing angles. First at 0 degrees.

                    .
                    Oh dear.........

                    My little 40lb bow could shoot a 3/8"dia 30" arrow 220 yards.
                    The English war bow of Crecy or Agincourt could shoot up to 400 meters.

                    But the Persian bows built up from bone and sinew could shoot far beyond that.....

                    But your little 12 bore can't shoot as far as I could (at one time) sling a stone (250 yards)................

                    I don't think much of your gun!

                    Persian Archery - Tactics of an Empire


                    Archery Historian
                    https://archeryhistorian.com › Blog
                    The composite recurve bow was known and used as part of their daily lives. The Greek historian Herodotus writes of the ancient Persians: “from the age of five ...
                    People also ask
                    What was the range of the Persian bow?
                    Persian archers were renowned for their storm of arrows they could unleash on opposing forces. Their bows' range was 700 metres and the arrow was capable of easily pierce the armors of highest quality.

                    Comment


                    • Well, I've found it hard to believe that some American gun users, many in their later years, did not understand just how dangerous shotguns can be at very long distances. It's not just surprising but it's shocking, because they may have discharged their shotguns when quite unaware of where their shot could reach. Here is a site about gun safety, and I've photographed part of one page which explains how different shot sizes can travel. You will notice that even heavy shot used for geese can travel 1400 yards, but solid ball is dreadfully dangerous in the air at random.

                      shotgun shot dangerous ranges
                      The effective killing range of a shotgun is about that distance ... but the dangerous range is considerably more. For example, No. 7h shot carries, and is dangerous to humans, for 125 yards; No. 6 shot is dangerous for 250 yards; 3 and 4 shot are dangerous for 300 yards and BB shot is dangerous for 450 yards.

                      SHOTGUNS CAN KILL AT A LONG RANGE Two hunters ...

                      https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/archives...long_range.pdf

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eider View Post
                        We use IQ to make a mug of tea, catch a bus, calculate a shopping bill.
                        You may use physics but not IQ. IQ measures a person's ability to solve problems in a specific amount of time.

                        NO....... I'm referring to the elevation that is needed for a long range target rifle, and a very good example is the military Lee Enfield full bore open sight.
                        Without providing the individual components, and you said you didn't refer to any links or images, then there is no way to answer your question.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by eider View Post
                          You didn't find any 'exact' stats for that gun's range.
                          Between 1613 and 1622 the gun was used and was found to be capable of firing a 10 lb (4.5 kg) ball a distance of 2000 yards (1.8 km).[4] 1.8km = 1.11847mi.

                          Here is a neat video on it:


                          "The effective range of this cannon is quite magical. It is said to require 15 lbs. of
                          propellant, approximately 6.8 kg., to launch a 10 lb., approximately 4.5 kg.,
                          projectile to a distance of 2000 yds., approximately 1828 meters. This range
                          was considered excellent for that time. Whether for propaganda or other reasons,
                          it was claimed that this cannon could launch a 12 lb., approximately 5.4 kg.,
                          projectile to a distance of 7 mi., approximately 11.2 km. Subsequent experiments
                          showed that it could launch a 10 lb. projectile to a distance of 1200 yds."



                          So it is said to have a range of 2000 yds, tests showed it fired 1200 yds. but they claimed it could reach roughly12,250 yds.


                          Last edited by rogue06; 01-21-2024, 08:41 AM.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by eider View Post

                            Oh dear.........

                            My little 40lb bow could shoot a 3/8"dia 30" arrow 220 yards.
                            The English war bow of Crecy or Agincourt could shoot up to 400 meters.

                            But the Persian bows built up from bone and sinew could shoot far beyond that.....

                            But your little 12 bore can't shoot as far as I could (at one time) sling a stone (250 yards)................

                            I don't think much of your gun!

                            Persian Archery - Tactics of an Empire


                            Archery Historian
                            https://archeryhistorian.com › Blog
                            The composite recurve bow was known and used as part of their daily lives. The Greek historian Herodotus writes of the ancient Persians: “from the age of five ...
                            People also ask
                            What was the range of the Persian bow?
                            Persian archers were renowned for their storm of arrows they could unleash on opposing forces. Their bows' range was 700 metres and the arrow was capable of easily pierce the armors of highest quality.
                            Cutting out huge portions of my post like that is intellectually dishonest because the part you cut out shows that the shotgun can fire much further when you aim it higher. If you had actually read my post for more than one line and chart you would see that the gun could shoot past 400 yards at a higher degree firing angle.


                            The chart above is more accurate to the listed firing angle at 75 degrees. Although not 100% accurate in the visual it is a lot closer, and the range is significantly better than your bow if you aim higher. The effective range is also drastically higher even without aiming higher. If you go to an 80-degree firing angle it goes even further.


                            Remember, the purpose of these charts isn't to give a 100% accurate visual representation of the trajectory but to give the approximate range of the gun and ammo in question.

                            A 40lb bow is only effective to about 50 feet even if it can reach between 250 and 400 yards at maximum range. Also, an arrow is a very different kind of projectile than a slug. It's much more aeroarrowdynamic.

                            Oh, and your link to the Persian bows does not have the information on the range of the bows. The quote you gave comes from this website. Just because some bows can outrange some shotguns doesn't change the range of the shotguns. I can find very little when it comes to citations on the ranges of the type of bows the Persians used. There are reports as high as 963 yards for Ottoman Sultan Selim III, but no one has been able to replicate this despite having access to better materials in modern composite bows which have a range of about 400 yards. You aren't going to be finding bows that match that kind of power today because they don't make them for war these days and I can't even find any that have a 150 lb. draw weight.

                            Originally posted by eider View Post
                            Well, I've found it hard to believe that some American gun users, many in their later years, did not understand just how dangerous shotguns can be at very long distances. It's not just surprising but it's shocking, because they may have discharged their shotguns when quite unaware of where their shot could reach. Here is a site about gun safety, and I've photographed part of one page which explains how different shot sizes can travel. You will notice that even heavy shot used for geese can travel 1400 yards, but solid ball is dreadfully dangerous in the air at random.

                            shotgun shot dangerous ranges
                            The effective killing range of a shotgun is about that distance ... but the dangerous range is considerably more. For example, No. 7h shot carries, and is dangerous to humans, for 125 yards; No. 6 shot is dangerous for 250 yards; 3 and 4 shot are dangerous for 300 yards and BB shot is dangerous for 450 yards.

                            SHOTGUNS CAN KILL AT A LONG RANGE Two hunters ...

                            https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/archives...long_range.pdf
                            That is a report from the Department of Industry and Commerce in Winnipeg Manitoba and has no citations for heavy goose shot pellets reaching 1,400 yards. It doesn't even specify what type of shotgun was used or the engineer that gave this figure. Earlier you said not to believe everything you read but you are fine doing that when you think it supports your view no matter how poor the evidence is. Second, the actual damage caused by the pellet could have killed the hunter, but it only got lodged in his cheekbone. They said that it could have killed or blinded him if it had hit a bit higher. Meaning it would have had to hit him directly in the eye and even then, it was only a maybe it could have killed him instead of just blinding him. They were also using buckshot to hunt ducks! That is incredibly irresponsible and yes, dangerous. It doesn't mean that shotgun slugs can travel a mile, just that improper use of guns can lead to injury or death. They are reaching as far as they can, further than the range of a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with a slug.

                            Also, please learn how to take a screenshot. And by that, I don't mean taking a picture of your computer screen with a cellphone.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post





                              A 40lb bow is only effective to about 50 feet even if it can reach between 250 and 400 yards at maximum range. Also, an arrow is a very different kind of projectile than a slug. It's much more aeroarrowdynamic.


                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I saw the shot and had to take it.

                                Comment

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